4 Speed Auto Transmission for hdj 100r gxl cruiser - good for towing?

Submitted: Sunday, Nov 09, 2008 at 13:15
ThreadID: 63371 Views:9050 Replies:3 FollowUps:4
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Am posting this for a friend. He has seen one for sale and thought it looked ok but then a few mates of his has told him to avoid the 4 speed automatic due to problems jumping between 3rd and 4th gear when towing. Is this fact or fiction?
regards
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Reply By: Flywest - Sunday, Nov 09, 2008 at 14:51

Sunday, Nov 09, 2008 at 14:51


This is really what it all boils down too, (deliberate pun) regardless of the brand of vehicle or auto trans.

Heat is the enemy of auto transmissions when towing.

You can see from the picture above that over 80 degrees C is pretty much fatal for any auto trans, (by the way the 300 degrees mentioned at the bottom of the picture is Farenheight - I amended the rest of the temps to Celcius but forgot to do that one! Water boils at 212 f - and in a radiator under pressure at about 220f).

Now - when the trans oil gets hot - the trans starts to slip (wet clutches) and all sorts of clutch debris containing asbestos and copper etc, starts to circulate with the oil -



it can affect the valves in the transmission body that control gear changes, it can block the trans oil cooler radiator out front thats sposed to keep your tranny cool and it can help to destro the torque converter.

ONE way to protect the transmission is to install a tranmission oil temp gauge! (With the little table above pasted next to it!)



The middle gauge is the trans temp gauge. Its getting to 70C - which is as hot as I've ever had mine on a 44C day hauling 3.5 tonnes into Exmouth over the cape range.



I added a "deep tansmission pan" to my truck - with aluminim cooling fins and it holds an extra 3 quarts of trans oil!





I also added an after market Oil cooler radiator out front in behind the grill - this holds an extra couple liters of trans oil, AND helps keep the trans oil cooler.

Lastly, I added a stainles steel water tank - with a 12V pump, to feed water to a garden mister sprinkler behind the gril and wired thru a switch on the dash.



When i notice either Engine Exhaust Gas temperaturs getting warm via the pyrometer probe in the exhaust - or the trans temp gauge starting to creep up in extreme temps / gradients or headwinds, or combinations thereof - I just hit the water switch, and you can WATCH the engine oil temps the EGT's and the trans oil temps all drop - and at the same time the air conditioner starts blowing cooler air.

It would be MUCH simpler to just have a manual transmission - granted but my particular truck wasn't imported into Aus in the manual configuration being a RH drive model built in Brazil, so I had no choice but to make the autop trans the very best i could for the Job asked of it.

If you have to choose an auto - this is an example that there ARE things you can do to to the vehicle to modify it slightly to better suit it to the hard task of hauling a load in the driest continent on earth tru VERY hot deserts etc that lost of Australia is made up of.

You don't have to accept the standard vehicle the manufacturer puts out, which might be designed for snow clad roads in Europe or Canada Alaska etc.

Yes - the Cruiser auto trans will "hunt" between gears - specially if you use the cruise control on hills etc, UNLESS you do something like the mods I did to my F 250 to heat proff it - where the manufaturers never envisioned the type of conditions we encounter regularly here in Oz.

I';dprefer the reliability of a manual transmission for towing any day - butwhen thats NOT an option - you just have to make the most out of your auto tarnny with a little knowledge as the driver and some mods to allow you to shed the heat and keep that trans oil cool - when it's VERY hot outside.

Last year during the monsoon in the Pilbara we had ONE day where the temp reached 48.5C

Either vehicle Manual or auto will suit your needs - you might just have to do a few mods to make the auto do it a bit easier.

Cheers
AnswerID: 334359

Follow Up By: Member - 120scruiser (NSW) - Sunday, Nov 09, 2008 at 15:51

Sunday, Nov 09, 2008 at 15:51
What an excellent and very informative post. Top quality stuff flywest. Well done mate.
Scott
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FollowupID: 602126

Follow Up By: Flywest - Sunday, Nov 09, 2008 at 17:35

Sunday, Nov 09, 2008 at 17:35
Thanks Scott.

I do try - I guess if I got paid for what I know and write - maybe I could afford a membership here! ;o)

I learned the above info off US 4WD sites specific to the Eff Truck - and i went searching because the KNOWN downside of EFF trucks in Aus is they seem to chew out trannys about every 60,000 miles or 100,000 km's at best when towing!

Putting in a replacement seems to entail about a $20K bill bye the time you get one shipped out from the US!

When I first bought Effie for towing the boat - I performed a USED OIL Analysis (UOA) on the transmission fluid as a result of all the horror stories I'd heard aout F trucks with auto trannies chewing them up and spitting them out.



You can see the results came back "Abnormal" with very high readings of

Fe (Iron) 106 PPM
Pb (Lead) 31 PPM
Cu (Copper) 84 PPM
Sn (Tin) 12 PPM
Al (Aluminium)
Si (Silicon - dirt/sand) 5 PPM
Na (Sodium - salt) 4PPM
Mb (Mollybednum) 2 PPM

Thats some of the crud you can see stuck to the sump plug drain magnet in the trans sump in one of the above photo's!

A lot of the non ferous crap gets pumped around the tranny - and scores the aluminum cylinders in the valve bodys etc and plays havoc with gear changes etc if valve bodys get stuck on jammed foreign material - all this stuff also wears out the trannys quicker, blocks the cooler etc.

When a trannny detonates (or the torque converter) all the crap metal bits go thru the tranny under pressure of the oil pump and destory it basically.

So - what I also did that I omitted to mention above, was install a paper cartridge filter (oil filter just like for the engine oil) in the transmission oil line between the tranny and the cooler. (well really it is a sub micron filter so a bt better quality than a standard oil filter - but basically looks the same).

This way - IF anything craps itself in the tranny, the metal particles all get filtered out in the filter BEFORE they get to block up the tranny cooler and before they getumped back into the transmission.

Oh - I also added to the outside of ALL my filters (engine oil - Enginefilter, oil submicron bypass filter & transmission oil sub micron filter) a rare earth Nyobium Magnet - to help trap any ferrous metal debris within the cartridge filter.

I notice when I change oil - and clean out the sub micron Filter bodies - a definite pattern of very fine metal like powder stuckl to the cannister where the striong magnet attaches outside!

I remove the magnet (after the filter is screwed off the engine or oil line) then wipe & wash this debris out!.

Often this means if a torque converter craps itself - the only replacement cost is a new torque converter - NOT an entire new auto trans since non of the metal makes it's way back to the intricate workings of the transmission itself.

Lets face it, IF FORD NISSAN or TOYOTA really cared about their 4WD's for towing in Oz, most of this stuff would be STANDARD fitment on a new veihlcle.

Even the NEW Tojo Sahara V8 Twin Turbo diesel AUTO I drove last week at $117K...desnt have such a filter to protect the tranny!

One wonders about the quality of engineers they employ at these places to design their new product - obvioulsy non of them have ever towed a heavy load in the heat of Oz's outback!

The hunting between gears of the auto's with cruise control - comes on the "jumpups" north of Carnarvon mostly - where cruise control cannot "see an approaching hill" - increase speed slightly - coast up the hill by easing the throttle and allowing the auto to stay in top gear then increase speed again on the downside of the hill.

No - the cruise control keeps the vehicle at the set speed (say 100kph), then encounters the hill unexpectedly and applies throtle too late to try and maintain speed - the auto then kicks down a gear at say 90 kph which you don' want - the engine revs its guts out to get back up to 100 and seconds later is coasting down the other side of the hill - trying to use engine breaking to slow you to 100kph..

Cruise control is no use with a heavy load on anything except flat ground.

I found in Hot weather - I can control engine rpms and hence EGT's and Trans oil temps etc etc a LOT better by driving with my foot on the throttle - and accelerate slightly to maybe 105 or 110 before the hill - coast up the hill driopping to maybe 95 without kicking downa gear and then accelerate a little going down hill - to get back to 100kph - then re set the cruise control fo the next 5 or 10 miles till the next "jump up" hill / dune on the landscape approaches.

Then I flick cruise off and drive manually over the hill - and then resume cruise control.

It's a trick you learn -just like hitting the water switch when needed.

A side benefit of the water tanks & 12V pump is I keep a garden hose & nozzel etc with snaplocks behind the seat.

In the unlikely event of a tyre fire - you can plug the hose in to a snaplock on th rear bumper - hit the dash pump switch and water down the tyre - to cool it off and stop spontaneous reignition from built up heat making the rubber molten!

This can prevent a tyre fire from setting a fiberglass or alumiunium boat or caravan on fire and then spreading till you lose your whole rig, car and towed boat/van!

Obviously I have a few fire extinguishers as well - which can hold the tyre fire at bay for long enough, while I get the water hose hooked up!

Even if it doesn't save my boat & truck it COULD help someone else less fortunate on the roadside who finds themselves in such a spot of bother.

Maybe more folks should travel with adequate water and a pump to deploy it when towing in the outback?

Had I known better (or asked) I might have found the poly water tanks available at 4WD stores before I comitted the $11K to having the 2 stainless steel water tanks fabricated for that particular project!

Wise in hindsight!

Cheers!
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FollowupID: 602134

Follow Up By: Ranger75 - Monday, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:26

Monday, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:26
An excellent discussion here FlyWest.
I notice your analysis results on the Mercon ATF.
Apart from an elevated Iron, also notice the Copper level [at 83ppm] is far too high.
At this level of Copper there will be the predicted oxidation of the fluid that you show in the pictures attached to your post.
Dissolved Copper is about the best oxidiser of ATF's, so it must be controlled to low levels in the used oil. 10ppm is about as high as you should get to be safe, given the temperatures involved.
From experience I suspect, this Copper level, could be dissolution of any turbolators in the oil coolers.
These devices are intended to increase heat transfer during cooling. They are almost always made of brass and they should be Arsenic passivated. If they are not properly passivated the Copper dissolves in the oil, hence your analysis result.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 602249

Follow Up By: Flywest - Monday, Nov 10, 2008 at 18:02

Monday, Nov 10, 2008 at 18:02
Thanks Ranger 75,

Indeed the ATF was oxidised very badly as you can see from the pan magnet photo and the UOA results!

The SAD thing is - that was 1 week after buying the truck from MACINERNEY FORD, in Morley with only 100,000km's (60,000 miles) on it - who obviously never even LOOKED at the ATF condition despite assurances they had completely serviced the truck since it was traded in before delivering it to me!

I doubt the ATF was ever changed from NEW - and it was serviced according to the log book by Midway Ford Midland so - someone doesn't take their job very seriously at FORD, which is WHy i'd never buy another ford from either yard - heck they couldn't give me one, if i won it in a raffle!

Yes when i replaced the pan and added the temp transducer, and extra cooler as well as in line Filter - I completely changed the trans oil - including the torque converter using a methd I read about on a US web board to flush the old oil out completely and replace with new using the oil pump integral to the tranny!

Now with the extra deep pan, extra oil cooler and extra filter it holds a HEAP of Mercon ATF now and stays clear / clean and a nice red colour on the stick and never misses a beat!

I've towed about 16,000 km's with it since and not had any tranny issues!

It is just a matter of keeping it within it's temp levels, changing filters etc (I even changed the filter inside the pan, which also had never been done since new and had a LOT more crud and metal bits etc trapped inside it).

You cannot rely on dealers to do this work - they may charge you for it and record it as done in the service book but that doesnt mean they actualy touched it!

And - when they are KNOWN for problems with the trannys - you'd think the dealers who have to cover the warrany - would take special care to get the servicing right!

I came to the conclusion the dealers actually WANT the warranty work because FORD pays for it and it keeps their worksop staff employed - so by sabotaging your tranny thru not servicing it they can get a paid $20K warranty job outta Ford for their workshop staff .

Don't even start me, on their FORD extended warranty they sell!

That would entail similar length posts to the two above!

Cheers!
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FollowupID: 602293

Reply By: Member - DOZER- Sunday, Nov 09, 2008 at 18:07

Sunday, Nov 09, 2008 at 18:07
The 4 speed is a truck sort of gearbox and would handle anything you could throw at it....i would simply not tow in 4th, Toyota put a power button on them that has a programme that doesnt select o/d till 100km/hr....to go that fast, you need a fair amount of pedal input so it kicks back...unless you are coasting or going down hill....
This is how it should be and you will find that towing in 3rd does not impact economy, but allows the whole drivetrain to do it easily.
There is also an upgrade for them at wholesale automatic transmissions Bayswater...google is your friend.
Andrew
AnswerID: 334382

Reply By: Member - Robert G (WA) - Friday, Nov 14, 2008 at 17:19

Friday, Nov 14, 2008 at 17:19
I have the 4 speed and I tow without problems. It will hunt in hilly territory and you just need to lock out overdrive with the press of a button. You can go back to overdrive when the road levels out or stay in 3rd.

By the way, this is a great and infromative post! I have a temp guage for my trans but yet to fit. This info has helped me know where my tem needs to sit.
AnswerID: 335251

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