Sand Flags on the Madigan Line
Submitted: Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 12:21
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Member - Triton man
I am not asking about the pro's and con's of Sand Flags, just their legal requirement. I understand sand flags are required in "
Simpson Desert Conservation Park" and also "
Simpson Desert Regional Reserve" but both of these areas are in the state of S.A. The
Madigan Line is way north and contained entirely in the N.T. and a small section of Western Queensland. The exit for us going West to East will be the eastern side of the Eyre Creek (flood) diversion just 56 kilometres west of
Birdsville. A sand flag is not even required for "Big Red".
For travellers heading West to East, I would think it fair to say they would expect no traffic coming from East to West (due to very steep sand dunes) and UHF a much more useful tool. One of the party (T.L.) does have a flag and would use it at the Eyre Creek / QAA line
junction till the East of Big Red to lead our 4 vehicle convoy. My opinion is to look and listen ,transmit occassionally and that a sand flag is not a legal requirement. I now hand over to my learned buddies.
Reply By: Bob Y. - Qld - Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 13:49
Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 13:49
I haven't checked any of our old Madigan permit details, but I wouldn't be surprised if the permit holder isn't directed to use a sand flag on the Madigan.
As for the use of UHF, I wonder why some people fit them to their vehicle, and then don't use them. We had just left Madigan
Camp 16, heading down the
Hay track to the QAA Line, and had pulled up at a
well used
camp site, when through the timber came a Pajero. We hadn't heard any chatter whatsoever, to indicate a northbound vehicle. During our conversation with the couple, they mentioned they had turned the UHF off, "once we got out of the sandhills".
Another reason for all vehicles to have a flag is if the party splits up. One member of the group may get a compassionate call from
home, or need to head for civilisation for mechanical or medical reasons.
In the end, it's up to you blokes, Triton Man.
Bob
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Triton man - Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 15:31
Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 15:31
A good bit of common sense there Bob, you do think outside the box.
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Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 16:12
Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 16:12
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I don't recall a flag requirement on the Madigan permit but then, I didn't look for it as I always 'fly the flag' in dune country. And many other tracks for that matter....... I'v got it, why not fly it?
As for UHF, totally unreliable to determine on-coming traffic for all the reasons already stated.
The "Bloody Idiot" who is going to charge up the dune in front of you is the same Bloody Idiot who is not going to bother with using UHF. And there is a good chance that he is not flying an ADEQUATE dune flag either.
My defence is to always fly a good flag and approach the dune crest at a very low forward speed whilst 'expecting' someone to appear in front of me. This once saved me from ramming into the rear of a camper trailer which presented a very low profile ahead whist it, and the vehicle towing it, had stopped just over the crest. Yep, you guessed it, they were taking a photo. And they had a flag.... of sorts... but no UHF, not that that mattered as I was not searching for one!
I highlighted above an "ADEQUATE" flag. I have seen many on the Simpson using very tall but flexible poles which simply bend back with the forward vehicle motion such that the flag is no higher than the vehicle roof and way too far back. Of course, when stationary, the owner stands gazing proudly at his tall dune flag, obliviously unaware of its futility. Totally hopeless!!
Hopeless Dune Flag
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Triton man - Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 16:33
Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 16:33
Well said Allan, funny thing I had the very same experience with a dude (W*nker) with a camper trailer just over the crest. Fortunately I also like to go slow, no trailer and my aim is to reach the top in the right gear, low pressures and a speed approaching zero at the apex. Fortunately, gearing and sand stops you fast, first time I was gratefull for the resistance to movement. Can't remember if I had to resort to brakes but think not.
Good shot of the "hopeless Dune Flag", it looks like a 3 piece unit.
Mine is the Santos issued one and I had it cut into two and a fishing rod ferrule inserted by a proffessional fishing rod maker in
Mossman (north of
Cairns) for $20. Rod can now be stowed for city driving or
places where overhangs and snags can occur
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 17:46
Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 17:46
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The flag pole in my signature photo is not current and is a very old photo.
It was the flag used on our first Simpson crossing, purchased from the
Birdsville servo, made from 25mm HD
orange conduit. But it did
well.
My current pole was purchased from the EO
Shop. Alas, they no longer sell them, but still sell the flags.
It is a 32/25mm O.D. fibreglass telescopic pole, steel reinforced at the bottom and sits nearly 4 metre above ground. It can also be used to lever the Troopy out of a rut. lol
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Follow Up By: Sigmund - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 07:13
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 07:13
I used 1"
orange conduit as
well, sitting in a larger conduit socket on the nudge bar, so it was removable and could go into the wagon.
Now about those UHF aerials vibrating to bits ...
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Reply By: Member - Boobook - Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 20:00
Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 20:00
What would a Madigan trip cost? $1500 to $2000
A sand flag? From $45
I just cant imagine why people scrimp on safety items like this.
Imagine
-The vehicles get separated for some reason
-The one sand flag breaks ( common)
-The lead vehicle breaks down or a substitute driver who is not comfortable leading has to drive.
-Vehicles need to spread out
-The lead vehicle has had too many punctures and needs to sit back for the trip
etc
Potential major issues, all for saving $45. One meal at a Pub on the way.
Inexpensive 3M sand flag
AnswerID:
630006
Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 21:36
Monday, Feb 10, 2020 at 21:36
I was going to buy one last year for the
Madigan Line but the wife didn't like the choice of colours ( colors) so i gave it a miss.
Dave.
30 odd replies !. Life's to short for this : )
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Follow Up By: Member - Triton man - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:28
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:28
Hi there Boobook, Thanks for joining in, WOW, 25 responses to date and actually no-one has actually answered the question "Are they (sand flags) a legal requirement for the Madigan Line". My question was prefaced by not wanting to know about the pros and cons of sand flags, just the legal requirement which still remains open (unanswered).
I DO have a
sand dune flag and it has been part of my 4WD kit for years and has been on some fabulous trips with me. I have replaced the flag part once already after some shredding in
the overhang on the CSR and last year had the solid pole cut in half and a fishing rod ferulle inserted by a professional fishing rod maker so I could stow it when not required (high overhangs, underground car parks etc.)
What I will tell my convoy so far (until proved wrong by a definitive answer) is that "a sand flag is not a legal requirement but generally recommended, they can be bought for the price of a pub meal" "If you choose not to buy one, that's fine and you can sit behind a vehicle with a flag but not take a turn at leading the convoy". I think that should cover it and I thank you for the price comparison to the pub meal - LOL
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:00
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:00
LOL Triton Man, I do understand your frustration in getting answers to every answer except the one you ask on EO, including my answer.
I do know that the
Madigan line east of about
Hay River, and Big Red are on Private property, so probably no rules. As to the western half, I guess you will need to ask the CLC as part of your permit request. I suspect the real answer is that it may or may not be a legal requirement, but it definitely is a sensible, realistic, affordable safety requirement, especially in an organised group.
The only other ( unsolicited) advice I can give is if I was the trip leader, I would make it mandatory for the trip. With litigation, and the possibility of you being sued in the event there is an incident, you may need to demonstrate that you planned the trip with safety in mind. Not mandating flags could be positioned as negligence in a court if,
heaven help us, it got to that.
Anyway I hope the trip goes
well.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Genny - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 14:39
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 14:39
I think the question is a little loaded.
Akin to asking "How hard can I safely hit the flat end of an artillery
shell with a hammer?"
Absolutely nobody is going to say "0.22 Newtons ......"
The advice you got was good advice,
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Triton man - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 16:14
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 16:14
Hi again Boobook, Pleased to see you didn't get upset and saw the funny side of this, it is all good. I am absolutely amazed at the interest and resposes to date. I am looking forward to the trip, just 3 months away now, might modify my wording a bit to suit the next briefing but leave the pub feed in, a carton (30 pack) of XXXX is also about the same price.
Strange you should mention litigation etc. in your last para, that very same question came up at our last 4WD Club meeting with a resolution to consult with our governing body and the National Council of 4WD Clubs on the resposibities and liabilities of Trip Leaders on organised club outings, hope to know more by departure date.
Genny, I think your artillery
shell may be a little "loaded", you be carefull out there - hear !!!
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Reply By: Peter_n_Margaret - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:25
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:25
I make my own (and I made the one on the Canter).
Only need to be half a metre above the OKA, but I like them higher than that.
The long tapered one on the Canter has good visibility and the
orange has better visibility than the yellow despite both being "approved" colours.
I use the fibreglass rods from an old tent with QC air fittings and a good source of dayglow is a hi vis jacket at about $2 which can make 4 flags.
Flags
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 15:20
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 15:20
What ! No Aboriginal flag on the OKA Peter?. Shame on you. :)
Dave.
See you've got that nights Menu printed on the side.
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 16:50
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 16:50
Peter, I don't think that flag would be legal for the Simpson. I believe it needs to be 2M above the roof line, mounted at the front of the roof. Not a half a metre.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 17:31
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 17:31
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Here is a cut-and-paste from SA National Parks re Simpson flags:
Safety flags:
All vehicles must be fitted with a safety flag when travelling in the Munga-Thirri–
Simpson Desert Conservation Park or Munga-Thirri–
Simpson Desert Regional Reserve.
Flag requirements:
minimum 300mm wide by 290mm high
made of fluorescent materials, red-
orange or lime-yellow in colour.
Vehicles:
With front bullbar - flag pole attached to the bulbar, with top of the flag a minimum 3.5 metres from the ground.
Without front bullbar - flag pole attached via bracket at the front of the vehicle, with top of the flag a minimum 3.5 metres from the ground; alternatively flag pole attached to the front of the roof rack, with top of the flag a minimum 2 metres from the roof of vehicle.
Motorbikes are currently exempt from having to display a safety flag, however headlights must used at all times during travel.
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 18:57
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 18:57
I don't have a bull bar, I don't have a pack rack. The only consistent thing about those stupidly worded regulations that make assumptions about what the vehicle is, is that they all result in a flag about 3.5M above the ground and close to the front of the vehicle, which would have been sufficient description.
Both the OKA and the Canter comply with that.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 21:42
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 21:42
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Well Peter, to be lawful you are just going to have to get a "roof-rack" or a "front bullbar" or a "flag pole attached via bracket at the front of the vehicle". lol
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Follow Up By: Member - Ross N (NSW) - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 22:06
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 22:06
Sounds like the regulation was written by ARB.
Ross
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Wednesday, Feb 12, 2020 at 19:24
Wednesday, Feb 12, 2020 at 19:24
Well the Canter has a pack rack, but it is lower than the roof by a significant margin, so that sort of makes that bit of the rule a bit silly. Alternatively, if the flag was attached to his bumper and the top of the flag was at 3.5M (as per the rule), it would be the same height as the roof. That would comply but would be a bit stupid too.
I consider that the safety achieved by achieving the intent is more important than the "letter of the law".
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Wednesday, Feb 12, 2020 at 20:02
Wednesday, Feb 12, 2020 at 20:02
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Pete, take a look at
the Desert Park Handbook of an earlier unknown year.
The text says..... "Make sure a tall visible flag is attached to the front of your vehicle or at least to the lead vehicle of your convoy warn oncoming traffic of your approach on dune crests."
The photo on the opposite page illustrates is beautifully. The flag on the vehicle on the left is hardly "tall", maybe 2.5m and the flag on the vehicle on the right is attached somewhere near the back of the roof rack and leaning back behind the vehicle. I can't find a current Handbook to see what they now show!
Desert Parks Handbook
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Reply By: Member - shane r1 - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 22:13
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 22:13
I think you would need a very good lawyer or whatever to determine just what the answer really is. Between laws, legislation, regulations etc, etc.
Sometimes there’s just good old common sense , and most of us would just use a sand flag.
I wonder if ANYONE really knows?
Another subject that gets everyone going , hey!
Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Triton man - Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 22:32
Tuesday, Feb 11, 2020 at 22:32
Hi Shane r1,
Certainly DID get everyone going, this topic has broken records for such a simple question. The answer I have derived from my many friends here is "F*** Knows", so I will go with common sense (which is not so common these days). In any case, I don't think Mr. Plod will drive out to meet me on The Madigan.
I have never been asked for my Parks Pass before either. My last one was $171 last June at Mt. Dare. Funny thing, I met a guy going the other way in his Iveco with his dog (illegal) and he mentioned it was his 4th crossing with his 'best mate' and no-one had ever queried him. His answer was it was a $200 fine which was way way cheaper than have his mate board at a dog kennel back
home and a cheaper option to pay the fine.
Going with common sense - I trust myself to have some of it left
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