Ammonia Fridges

Submitted: Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 16:01
ThreadID: 139614 Views:13052 Replies:9 FollowUps:19
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Hi there,

Last weekend north of Perth there were multiple deaths caused by having a leaking fridge in a tent.

It may pay to check to see what type of refrigerant your fridge has - If it's ammonia then take heed.

Cheers
Alan

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In whatever comes our way.



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Reply By: Peter_n_Margaret - Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 16:06

Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 16:06
I suggest that the cause of death is still speculation.
Cheers,
Peter
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - Michelle - Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 18:22

Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 18:22
Sure the reports do state this, however it certainly does seem very plausible given the dog, and all humans in the tent were affected. News Story from ABC link here

also in this 7 News report, it states "Paramedics say she suffered a combination of hypoxia and toxic poisoning consistent with a gas leak." but also that "a first responder saw a gas bottle outside the tent, which had its flaps up amid hot weather. “It’s just leaked in,” Ms Holmes said. “People have mentioned a fridge - it may be the gas bottle that powered the fridge." See 7 News link here.
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Reply By: Genny - Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 20:00

Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 20:00
Is it possible this is a carbon monoxide poisoning?
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Reply By: Member - DOZER - Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 20:23

Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 20:23
Could be any of the above, most commonly it would be carbon monoxide and/or lack of oxygen if the tent was closed with a gas flame in there running a fridge. Ususally the pilot auto extinguishes if it goes out, due to them having a safety valve. Amonia is very pungent....but also very poisonous.
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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 20:36

Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 20:36
Think I might wait for the Coroners report.
Dave.
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Reply By: Rangiephil - Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 21:35

Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 21:35
I don't know how toxic ammonia is but I can tell you it is not odorless .
I have been in many ammonia cool rooms in India with lots of leaks and you really catch your breath.
Isn't ammonia used in smelling salts to wake people up?
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Reply By: swampy - Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 22:48

Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 22:48
HI
Fridges in vans are vented to outside air . Having a 3way inside a tent is dangerous. 2 forms of gas to try and kill ya , ammonia and LPG .

Could of been the dog farts LOL
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Reply By: Member - Racey - Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 23:38

Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 at 23:38
Equinox, I think you are jumping to conclusions. There is no mention in any of the reports about ammonia. As someone else suggested running a 3 way fridge in a tent is dangerous. There are a couple of car frig types which run on gas.
Lets wait on the final report.
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Follow Up By: equinox - Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 10:32

Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 10:32
Hi Racey,
Yes, the final report will reveal all, however until then it would pay to take extra precautions as appropriate.

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Follow Up By: OzzieCruiser - Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 10:48

Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 10:48
Well while Carbon Monoxide poisoning is the likely cause (remembering the pilot light is only half as big as a small candle flame) the media reports did say there was the smell of gas and a pipe had leaked - indicating either an ammonia leak or an LPG leak.

By the time the Coroner finalises the report it will years in the future and the incident largely forgotten so of course there will be lots of speculation.
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Follow Up By: Member - shane r1 - Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 11:45

Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 11:45
Just a bit more speculation.
Was the weather cool, could a gas heater inside be to blame.
It’s another thing to be aware of.
You would be pretty unlucky to have a fridge leak gas. A lot of fridges are carried in side vehicles too, so could be a problem as well.
Cheers
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - Michelle - Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 12:29

Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 12:29
Ahh, no Shaner1 ...the weather in Perth's summer is most def not cool. It was a very hot long weekend here. Wedge is just up the road about 2 hrs north of Perth so perhaps even hotter than it was here which was 38 degrees.
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Follow Up By: Member - shane r1 - Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 13:09

Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 13:09
Didn’t think it had been that cool either, but can have some pretty cool snaps here on eyre peninsula in the middle of summer. 45 one day 20 the next.
Cheers
Shane
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Reply By: Ron N - Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 19:00

Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 19:00
I owned a 1930's double-door, wooden-framed 240V fridge powered by ammonia, it was used as a beer and drinks fridge in the shed in the 1980's, after I acquired it from the old lady next door.

It sprang a leak around 1990, and I took it to a fridge repair shop and tried to get it repaired and re-gassed, and the fridge repair bloke told me they stopped using ammonia refrigerant many years before, and it could not be repaired.
So I left it with him to be scrapped. Bit of a shame really, it was a real classic antique fridge and 1930's furniture item.

So, AFAIK, there are no recent-model fridges (in the last 40 years) using ammonia for refrigerant gas today, unless it's an original 1930's fridge they have been using.

I would more than likely suspect these people were gassed by carbon monoxide, the real stealth killer - or propane.
Contrary to many peoples beliefs, "pongy" gases will not wake you up. This has been proven by testing.

What does wake people up, is auditory stimulation, we are conditioned to be alert to strange noises, even when asleep.
There have been many fatal gassing events recorded, when people have been asleep, and failed to be woken by the gas smell.

ABC News (U.S.A.) - Odours aren't likely to awaken sleepers

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: bobsabobsa - Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 19:17

Thursday, Jan 30, 2020 at 19:17
Ron,
Ammonia is still in use today, just not on those old belt driven units of the 1930s
3 way fridges use it R717 is ammonia,
they still have the big freezer coolrooms on it, large stuff blast freezers -40C
Bob
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Friday, Jan 31, 2020 at 07:32

Friday, Jan 31, 2020 at 07:32
You are correct Ron with regard to odours not waking people up. There have been a number of studies that have proven this. That is why when people are asleep in a fire, they are more likely to die from smoke inhalation, because their sense of smell is also “asleep”, and they do not smell the smoke.

As for ammonia gas in fridges, I was also pretty sure it was not used in modern fridges as a refrigerant.

Macca.
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Follow Up By: bobsabobsa - Friday, Jan 31, 2020 at 10:06

Friday, Jan 31, 2020 at 10:06
Macca

R717 is still in use to day

R717 is refrigerant grade high purity ammonia (NH3). The product typically is 99.98% pure with minimal levels of moisture and other impurities (< 200 ppm and < 5 ppm Oil) making it ideal for use in all types of refrigeration systems

check this brand new absorption fridge specs
DOMETIC RUA 5208X
ABSORPTION REFRIGERATOR, 153 L
link
https://www.dometic.com/en-au/au/products/food-and-beverage/refrigerators/rv-refrigerators/dometic-rua-5208x-_-207609



Bob
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Follow Up By: Keir & Marg - Sunday, Feb 02, 2020 at 15:43

Sunday, Feb 02, 2020 at 15:43
From the Dometic website.
"Refrigerators manufactured by Dometic are free of CFC/HCFC and HFC. Ammonia (a natural compound of hydrogen and nitrogen) is used in the cooling unit as a coolant."
How many vans in Australia have a Dometic fridge???
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Feb 02, 2020 at 21:00

Sunday, Feb 02, 2020 at 21:00
Keir & Marg - According to the specifications on the Dometic fridges on their website (linked below), only their Adsorption (3-way) fridges use R717.

Their compressor fridges use R134A.

Dometic - Refrigerators

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Crusader - Sunday, Feb 02, 2020 at 22:21

Sunday, Feb 02, 2020 at 22:21
So the last (?) word in all of this is that ....yes ammonia is still in use today as a refrigerant .
Cheers
Crusader
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Reply By: Notso - Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 15:12

Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 15:12
99.999% that is was carbon monoxide. The trouble with it is that you don't know you are breathing it. As you breath it in the Haemoglobin has a greater affinity for CO, than for Oxygen.

So the CO eventually binds with enough of the Haemoglobin so that your blood can't carry enough Oxygen around the body and you first become unconscious and then pass away. A very painless death.

Oxyhaemoglobin is a nice red colour, Carboxy haemoglobin is an even brighter red and one of the symptoms of CO poisoning is a very ruddy complexion.

The idea of running any un-flued gas appliance in a confined space such as a caravan, tent etc horrifies me, but a lot of caravanners/campers still do it.
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 16:53

Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 16:53
According to the initial report from the Police, it was a “gas leak” from a pipe.

Macca.
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Follow Up By: Notso - Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 18:21

Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 18:21
I suppose you could call it that, CO comes out of a pipe!
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Follow Up By: Genny - Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 19:58

Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 19:58
To be fair, a journalist said that police said it was a gas leak.

With the quality of journalists in this country, I'd take that with a large grain of salt. They have been known many times to take 2 + 2 and come up with a brazilian .....
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 20:13

Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 20:13
I would hope there will be a Coronial Inquest, which will reveal the exact cause and the conditions that lead to the deaths.
However, only 3% of unnatural deaths in W.A. are referred to the Coroner for investigation.

The Coronial Inquiry process in W.A. is extremely complex and the Police have to defer to a Coroners delegate, who then decides if a Coronial Inquest is needed.

The reasons for an Inquest are not laid out in any specific laws or manner, it is purely up to the delegate to decide whether an Inquest is warranted.

As a result, the whole system is a bit hit-and-miss when it comes to disseminating important information to the public, about events that caused accidental death or deaths, or deaths by misadventure - and which could cause more deaths, if the public are not widely warned about them.

As with numerous heater flue/ventilation deaths, the specific reasons and circumstances are not often revealed - but the public is then specifically warned, after the accidental deaths, by the "appropriate" authorities, with regards to the dangers of improper installations and inadequate ventilation, of the particular devices.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Notso - Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 20:24

Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 20:24
I'm not too sure how many of this sort of event I've attended over the years, but in my experience, Ammonia won't kill you unless it is enough to suffocate you. One whiff of it and you'll run a mile!

LP Gas is a suffocant and yes it can displace oxygen as it is about 2.5 times heavier than air. Again it isn't poinsonous in itself. The insidious thing about CO is that is about the same molecular weight as air so mixes very well at all levels of the confined space. And it doesn't have to be present in sufficient quantity to "Suffocate" because as I said above, it starves the Haemoglobin of oxygen, so you only need a small amount in the air to eventually be lethal.
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Follow Up By: Notso - Tuesday, Feb 04, 2020 at 10:04

Tuesday, Feb 04, 2020 at 10:04
Extract from Iowa State University Department of Agricultural and Biosystems Engineering

"Carbon Monoxide Poisoning: Health Effects (AEN-166)"

"What factors determine the danger level?

The time of exposure, the concentration of CO, the activity level of the person breathing the CO, and the person’s age, sex, and general health all affect the danger level. For instance, a concentration of 400 ppm will cause headaches in 1 to 2 hours. In 3 to 5 hours the same concentration can lead to unconsciousness and death. Physical exertion, with an accompanying increase in respiration rate, shortens the time to critical levels by 2 or 3 fold."

So 400 Parts Per Million is all it needs to cause death whilst asleep at night.

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Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 16:47

Monday, Feb 03, 2020 at 16:47
.
Is there a prize for the closest guess?
Bit of a grisly contest!

Cheers
Allan

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