Why are people bying Landrovers?

It is not the ignorance i am showing but a common sense, i beveive.Most people know what is a good 4x4.Just look at the sales figures.Jap vehicless may be a bit dull but they get you from a to b without carrying spare gearbox and axles on the roofrack.See you on the Canning Stock route Stephen.

I trust you have already done all wheel bearings at least once, broken at least one front CV and one axle, had you sincros done on your gearbox for 2nd and 5th as well as all new bearings throughout.Bent your front diff housing with only moderate use, had your rear diff lim. slip repaired, replaced your sagging suspension, removed your spare wheel from the stupidest place ever designed and had the rust repaired.If not you will have to put away a few bucks cos all these things and more come up on an 80 with more than 100,000 on the clock. See you on the side of the road. PS got to go now as I'm giving a work colleague a lift home whose 80 with 102,000 is having his transfer case replaced as he stripped all the splines off one of the shafts.

Goran
I know you don't want to hear this but I just did the Colson Track and French line in a TD5 towing a trailer. Please - no flames about towing a trailer. I towed the trailer behind the TD5 along the Mt Davies Rd last Easter. That it is a far harder track than the French Line. Comfortable, capable, economical and reliable is how I would describe the TD5. Stupid, ignorant and a jerk is how I would describe Goran.

bob you could have a perfectly good one? for example if a builder turned out a thousand bad pieces of work for every good one, would you knowingly hire him?? likewise for an auto manufacturer let's say for every five hundred poorly built units they get one right would you knowing that buy one???

Thank you Charl.That is pretty much what i was trying to say, but maybe i had gone too far this time and upset couple of people.I did not mean to hurt anybodys feelings, but just to warn about what i think is inferior vehicle for long range off roading. Suprisingly few people like Bob here with single digit IQ realize concenquences of computer and electronic fairlure say, around Calvert range in WA. Not even to speak about other inherited problems. If i have made even one prospective Landrover byer to seriously look into other options and do his (her) homework,well that would make me feel good.I will finish this by saying good lyck to all,and be safe.
Bob, if your brain was a powerhouse, you would be a walking blackout...:-)

well the land rover of today as we know it is as much as was the case with harley davidson many years ago. i think it will be many years yet before land rover get near or on par with the japanese manufacturers in relation to build quality and engineering know how, this sort of expertise takes many years to develop not withstanding the hard working type the japs are known to be, as well as being meticulous about everything. there is no magic bullet for land rover but what will become of the marque??? time will tell.

The Turbo Diesel 100 series cruiser is another vehicle that you can't use a HF in without turning the motor off. The injector system produces about 10 times more noise than the dizzy in a petrol vehicle. I know serveral people who have contacted toyota to try and find a solution and toyota doesn't want to know about it.

Goran mentions elsewhere that the 80 series is prone to dumping its entire load of oil due to a design fault. So I am to go and trade my TD5 with a proven track record for a brand that is capable of leaving me with a seized motor in the middle of nowhere? Incidentally, the 80 series that accompanied me on my last trip came back with the shocks flopping loosely near their mounts.
Frankly, the only thing that Goran's contribution tells me is why the Serbs and Croats have been killing each other as a national sport for the last 700 yrs - which side are you on Goran?

Damien,
I've recently sold my lemon Holden V6 4WD, and have had a TD5 for 1 year now. Tell me specifically what conditions the Jackaroo is better than the TD5 in. I can honestly think of only one. Power.

Well Slunnie,where do i begin. You mentioned a V6 Holden 4wd - what model? What year? list specific problems with the vehicle, i bet the list doesn't run as long as the problems with the Disco - you need to back up your statements pal!!!
Now, back to Jackaroo V Disco. You are correct, the Jackaroo has more power - loads more. I suppose it's a bit like comparing a Porsche to a Mini - not really a fair comparrison is it??
More power for acceleration, more power for overtaking, more power for towing - on that point, have you ever tried towing a caravan with a disco & arriving at your destination this year?
Off road the Disco isn't too bad, good engine braking being it's best asset. It did struggle with a river crossing one day, not able to get up the embankment & out. The Jackaroo did it effortlessly. As stated earlier, my neighbour sold his disco before i could embarrass him anymore!!

Well Slunnie,where do i begin. You mentioned a V6 Holden 4wd - what model? What year? list specific problems with the vehicle, i bet the list doesn't run as long as the problems with the Disco - you need to back up your statements pal!!! Now, back to Jackaroo V Disco. You are correct, the Jackaroo has more power - loads more. I suppose it's a bit like comparing a Porsche to a Mini - not really a fair comparrison is it?? More power for acceleration, more power for overtaking, more power for towing - on that point, have you ever tried towing a caravan with a disco & arriving at your destination this year? Off road the Disco isn't too bad, good engine braking being it's best asset. It did struggle with a river crossing one day, not able to get up the embankment & out. The Jackaroo did it effortlessly. As stated earlier, my neighbour sold his disco before i could embarrass him anymore!!
Gee, I'm surprised at the emotion involved here. Lets keep it clinical now, were not talking about girlfriends. Overlooking where you have not answered my question and what I've already said, according to you the only other condition the Jack is better is driving out of a river. You should have spent more time in the bush with the Disco - really. I don't know, I've never had a problem with either in this respect, and have wet bonnets in both vehicles. But what I have found is the Disco handles significantly better on dry and wet roads, it has lots more ground clearance front back and middle, and the ability to keep its wheels on the ground and it climbs better. When the wheels do lift or spin the ETC is a very powerful tool in keeping the progress happening, where the LSD in the Frontera SE V6 2000 Auto(thats one of your questions) was not powerful enough. Some suggest problems with the ETC in sand which is fair, but correct pressures basically sends the ETC to sleep. This may be the problem of your mates also on the slippery river bank. To have the CDL activated cost $400 for the TD5 which is not a big deal after paying so much for the vehicle, and this with ETC is unbelievable.
Now going through your list, the problems with the Frontera - Ride height incorrect specification, Auto loses fluid, Auto overheats under load, mechanical whine developed, intermittant wipers dont work, central locking self activates and many of the accesories did not come with the vehicle. Now it took 6 visits to the dealer to get the wipers fixed and direct dealing with Isuzu, I could tell at service time they had not topped up the transmission by the susceptability of it to go into limp mode when towing or beach driving, the central locking was never brought up and the developing whine went when I traded the vehicle. I did have lots of power, and it did drink lots of fuel. A tank went about 370km before refilling infact.
The Discos has not been without fault also. The CD player will not give a CD back. The dealer called yeasterday and will replace it today. Thats all, literally. There you go Damien, I've backed up my statements!
In responce to some more of your statements, a comparison between the Jack and Disco is not like that between a Porsche and Mini, not in my world anyway, thats a silly thing to say and I think that we both are fully aware of this.
Have I towed a caravan with it? Well no I have not towed a caravan, but of the towing done with it I feel it is less sensitive to the weight of the trailer compared to the Frontera. In fact the Disco is strong enough to tow 3500kg. I cant comment on the Jack, the Frontera was about 2000 and at highway speeds at times worked hard, harder than the Disco, despite the Fronteras power advantage - I don't know why though. You talk about getting there one day with the Disco, maybe on the road the Disco is not quite as fast, but it does get there. In the bush, well, lets just say - At least it gets there, and does it easily with no fuss or grazes.
I guess now you will talk about how the Frontera is not a Jack. You are correct, but the clearance in real terms is the same, the suspension types are the same. Can you tell me any other differences.

Sorry Damian, I've included your message at the top of my reponse.

Slunnie, i don't think i've contradicted myself one bit. I don't know where you live but in my part of the world 99% of the roads are bitumen & there's absolutely no need to engage 4wd - quite simple really!!
I'm also not sure how you drive, but i try to be responsible & drive within the cars limits. I can honestly say that i've never been in a situation where i've felt the slightest bit out of control.
The Jack handles beautifully in all conditions, wet,dry,roundabouts,whatever. When i do "muck around" it's in the mud & even you'd have to admit that you just can't have the same fun with constant 4wd.
When the situation demands 4wd, it's there. When you climb a steep rocky track in your disco you're in 4wd. 5minutes later when i take the same track, well what do you know, i'm in 4wd also. Not rocket science, just plain simple facts. You may not like part-time 4wd & that's your perogative, but the facts are that it works. The facts also say that the Disco is a "dud", my opinion sure, but read the other responses,many people agree.
Also interesting are your list of faults with the frontera. Hardly upto the scale & magnitude of the faults i listed with my mates disco, now are they??
Also, why did you buy a frontera & not a pathfinder???

Gday Damien
Being ex-racing I am very aware, and I guess in some respects sensitive to vehicle dynamics. I’m actually not a hoon on the roads, as I am aware of others around me, and the general lack of awareness that is out there. I don’t dislike part timers at all, don’t be under the wrong impression (though my preference is for full time 4WD), and from what I have seen some manufacturers can make this work quite well. This is something I believe Isuzu did with the Frontera (mind you using understeer as a safety limit)and have read Nissan also with the Patrol. I do have a problem with vehicles that don’t have this set up working well though. My family had a VT Berlina which was RWD with no ETC. My mother driving home one day spun the thing onto the wrong side of the road, back again and through a fence. The dynamics of the vehicle allow this when set up wrong. OK there is an element of driver error here, and I don’t think she is a hoon but never the less she broke the capabilities accidentally for those conditions and that is how the car responded. Wet roundabouts are another area where understeer/snap oversteer can happen, just from oil and wet. It’s just a trait of that set up, nothing more than that. When the vehicle is driven normally there is usually no problems, its the reaction when the performance envelope is exceeded (deliberately or accidentally).
Points taken about in the ruff, absolutely correct I think. Yup, I sometimes see mud and get the urge, but….. (LOL) Oh well.
With the Frontera, problems were there from the start and some involved major components (gearbox/transfer). It was a problem that was getting worse with this vehicle, and the dealer I bought the car from seemed to have a very limited diagnostic capability. Their inability to fix intermittent wipers was a good example. I thought this car was already on its way out, and as I’ve seen with other vehicles when 1 thing goes, everything goes. So the Frontera went before all of the bits under it did. Actually one of the body computers was also replaced. Magnitude of faults comparable to that of your mates – Well, I just got rid of mine quick. I bought the Frontera primarily for towing as it seemed to have a lot of grunt, which a test drive confirmed. I wasn’t interested in the Pathy, I just didn’t like it (nothing more to it than that – people that own them seem to love them) and I thought the Challenger was too basic.
The Disco has been good to me to date, but I think sometimes your lucky, and sometimes your not with respect to any vehicle being a lemon. I don’t think the current Disco is as bad as LR’s reputation suggests though I wonder if manufacturers put all of the bad bits on one vehicle? :-)

Fred said it so it is a cold hard fact. Silly me. Coming down the Colson and turning right onto the French line does not include big red. However, the dunes on the Mount Davies Road are bigger than big red and the Landrover had no trouble there last year. BTW, many drivers take a few goes at big red because they don't want to get air on the crest. I know I was a bit tentative first time, but better that than landing half way down the other side with roof rack tramlined onto the bonnet and a wrecked front end. Would photos of the Landrover on the French line help you Fred? No - I thought not.

Bob, you crossed the Simpson Desert without crossing Big Red? mmmmm Maybe half crossed if you entered the French Line at Colson Track. That leaves you just 129km of desert to Dalhousie. Even more to the point you had only 67km of dunes to Purnie Bore where the dunes finish for west bound travellers. So remembering that the Colson Track runs parallel to the dunes you towed your trailer for 67km of dunes. The dunes on this section are very easy going - so I'm not surprised that a disco made it. When you do get to Big Red don't fear about "getting air". You would need to be a very incompetent driver or a hoon to do that!!!! (There's a pic of a Nissan Bluebird or similar 2wd sedan, driven by a hoon, doing that in the Birdsville Pub.)
The technique for dune driving is to gain sufficient momentum and flotation to carry you to the crest. Approaching the crest of a dune it is very important to decelerate sufficiently to be almost stopped at the crest. This is particularly important in the Simpson Desert because although the majority of travellers go from west to east, there are some who choose the other way. Head-on collisions are difficult to avoid if you don't use the correct technique which I have outlined to you Bob. I would highly recommend that you contact the 4wd association in your state and see if they have a course available which would suit your needs. Oh and by the way if you do crest Big Red you'll be pleased to know that it "plateaus" - and therefore the problem you describe re "getting air" (what a hoonish expression!!!) and doing damage down the other side doesn't happen - there's a nice flat top there for you to regain your composure and even have a cuppa.
Anyhow Bob I'd better go and I trust the information I've given you will be useful - I'm always happy to help and advise fellow travellers. I'll be interested to hear your observations if you tackle the main part of the dunes.

Bob,
Ther's another very important thing which I should have told you too. Conditions in remote areas can change dramatically even from one day to the next. I've seen diesels, particularly the TD5 fail to crest Big Red after numerous attempts. This was because the sand at the time was particularly soft. A diesel doesn't have the ability to give that burst of power to gain sufficient flotation necessary to take a vehicle over soft sand. They're great in mountainous areas but have shortcomings in desert travel. You won't have any great problems in dunes but you will find some difficulty if the sand is soft. I suggest you hope for firm sand as you no doubt had last Easter - from memory there was quite a lot of rain in that area last year. Talk to others with similar vehicles before you try though. You'll find that it's very useful to have a chat with experienced travellers in an area. In a sense I guess that's what this forum is all about - a chance for the more experienced of us to help the "new chums" like yourself. (that was a little joke - linked to Landrovers, leather patches on the elbows of tweed sports jackets and tartan picnic rugs) I'm sure you'll see the funny side of that.
Enjoy your four wheel driving Bob.

Bob,
I see by your own admission that you were so drunk the other night that you increased the number of valves on a Pajero threefold! I think this casts serious doubts on your credibility. That sort of basic vehicle knowledge doesn't dissipate with intake of alcohol if one has a sound mechanical knowledge and understanding. Follow Michael's advice and do some courses - I suggest your state 4wd association as a starting point - they'll give you a basic course on 4wd techniques and should help you with mechanical knowledge too.
Being ill equipped and ignorant in the outback is a great danger to yourself.
It is also a great inconvenience to those of us who willingly go to your aid.
Good luck with your travels Bob

The Jackaroo's shift-on-the-fly system is actually quite advanced & allows the driver to switch to 4wd at the touch of a button, while on the move at speeds upto 100KMh.
Why do you need constant 4wd on Australia's roads anyway?? Most vehicles handle the black-stuff quite comfortably in 2wd - mine does anyway.
It's high priced, over-rated vehicles like the Disco that think running constant 4wd will mask the real fact that they are an inferior vehicle not suited to Austalian conditions.
looking at a 4wd should be based on its overall package. Buying a Pathfinder means you're not serious about 4wd'ing & buying a Disco means you're just not serious at all!!
Guess we already knew that though!!

I guess it's really about stability and having tyres share the work load. In a RWD you can do donuts and wheels spins, not really so in a constant 4WD. Its more stable and it puts power to the road well. This is why all the top level rally cars use them. What the point. Well at 100km'h as you say you are already in 4WD for the stability, the same as reason as you would use the shift on the fly function - but with no problems associated with having the centre diff locked like wind up or unusual handling.
The Shift on the fly system is actually not advanced in the slightest, don't be mistaken. The CDL remains locked at all time, and 2WD is provided by seperating one of the front half shafts. In fact it really is cheaper to do this than provide a locking centre diff. There is no advantage of shift on the fly over a constant 4WD. The higher fuel consumption is still there as is the wear on the front diff from rotation an the NVH from the front drive train as it all still rotates.
Considering Australia has so many dirt roads, actually how can the Jack be better suited to Australian conditions than constant 4WD's, really?
Now you have made statements about people not being serious about 4WDing that own Pathfinders and Discos. Can you back that up with something clinical and logical or do I dismiss this statement? When you talk about "we", do I also assume someone else is feeding you information. I'm sure you love your Jack, and thats a good thing, but be logical in your statements and as you have said yourself - "back them up".

Well Slunnie, if you'd bother pulling your head out from wherever it's stuck & read what i wrote you'll actually see the term black-stuff, no mention of dirt road in relation to 2wd/4wd. Of course 4wd is better on loose roads & all i'm saying is on tarmac there is no advantage for constant 4wd vehicle. In my case if i get onto loose stuff i simply press a button to engage 4wd - easy. Don't get so worked up, go have a drink or something, then again maybe that's your problem so don't.
No, i don't think pathfinder is a serious off-road vehicle & my feelings towards disco's are now well known. It is my opinion, which i am quite entitled to in this democratic land we live
in. My experience tells me that disco's are unreliable, if others want to trust them with their families in the outback that's their right, but i wouldn't.
Finally, no there is nobody else feeding me information & if their was they would have left
long ago after reading some of your crap!!

LOL!!! – Ok, Ok, Ok, you didn’t mention dirt road, but you did mention Australian roads remember. Ah, so many dirt roads in Australia. And now you have just contradicted yourself in saying “of course 4WD is better on loose (Australian) roads”. In addition, how much extra fuel does a locked center diff use. At work, the Prado and Landcruiser use a fair bit more than when unlocked. Constant 4WD is better on tarmac when it is wet, oily, roundabouts, zebra crossings, snowy. As I was saying before, when you put power down onto the road, a constant 4WD will spread the power to 4 wheels instead of 2. It means you are less likely to wheel spin or get out of full vehicular control.
By the way your comment, “Buying a Pathfinder means you're not serious about 4wd'ing & buying a Disco means you're just not serious at all!!” is not so much an expression of opinion, it’s a statement, though as you say we are all entitled to an opinion.
Anyway I am off to have a quiet ale as suggested :), but if you feel anything I have written is technically incorrect then post it and I will explain.

Goran
I am not prejudiced. It just comes as no surprise that if your countrymen are like you they are at each others throats all the time. I have taken Pajeros, a Toyota and a Discovery to the remotest and roughest parts of Australia (contrary to your assertion). Guess which is the only one to have a mechanical failure? The Toyota (actually an LX470 but we all know its just a tarted up 100 series). The fuel line parted at the junction between the reserve tank and main tank above the rear axle on a very remote outback QLD road. We only discovered the problem fortuitously, and repairing it involved crawling under the car in 35 degree conditions and being doused in petrol. A fire was a very real possibility. Running out of petrol could have left us stranded for days. So using your logic, all Toyotas are crap and all Pajeros and Discoveries are fault free? I think not. And as for sales figures Goran- have you noticed the relative numbers of Hyundais and Porsches on Australian Roads?

Goran, the old myth that constant 4WD increases fuel consumption and wear is just that - a myth. How much extra fuel is a set of gears and a couple of extra bearings going to use? A cupfull per 1000km? As for wear, if you are dividing the torque from the gearbox through two axles instead of one, the wear on each axle is much LESS! Anyway, you and your mates constant LR bashing is getting a bit tedious. Damien has had a 4WD for a year and thinks he knows everything, and you keep looking more like a fool with each post.

Yep, I agree. From what I've seen, I believe that as force through components (e.g diffs) goes up, so does wear, but not in a linear type of way. Wear seems to increase, unbelievably, exponentially in relation to load. Maybe an engineer can explain this to us. If you spread the load through 2 diffs then they shouldwear less.

You have got to be kidding Stephen. Goran raised an issue & i replied with my experience of the disco - a very bad experience.
I do not for one minute express the belief that i "know everything", you're a sinking man grasping at anything you can to stay afloat.
For those people that are a bit slow i will repeat it again - in my "opinion" the disco is a dud & i have backed it up with undeniable evidence. Do i neeed to get the owner of that particular vehicle on here to explain it??
Do i assume that because i have been having a (sometimes) heated discussion with Slunnie, you think i believe i know everything? Get off your high horse, i was simply having a discussion about different vehicles & the pro's & con's of 2wd/4wd. Not once did i say i was an expert!!!
It appears to me that some people may have a complex about their vehicles (particularly disco's) & they try to change the subject to attack another maker to get the attention off their own truck - how's that, pretty close? Goran opened a can of worms & they're going everywhere, when in fact the issue raised was about the landrover discovery.
I would suggest Stephen, that you worry about your own vehicle & it's ability to get the job done. I hope you don't have problems with it, but i think you'll be lucky.
No, i am not an expert & neither it seems are you. I simply have a point of view & have expressed it.

Damien, if you read my first reply to Goran you'll see that I DON'T have a 4WD yet - I'm reading this (and other forums, and as many sources of information I can get) so that I can make the right decision before I plonk down my cash. One thing I've learned is that when someone sticks their head up and says "all Discos are crap" or "all Toyotas are crap" or "all Nissans are crap", their opinions are immediately worthless. No 4WD on the market today is crap - they all have their strengths and weaknesses and it is these that excite the lunatic fringe and bring out the prejudice and ignorance. You don't have any "undeniable evidence" that all Discos are duds - you know one unhappy owner. So what? There are reports of unhappy owners of Toyotas in this very thread. Does this make all Toyotas duds? There are reports elsewhere of problems with the Nissan 3.0TD. Does this make all Nissans duds? While I appreciate all points of view I have to separate the worthy from the worthless, and until you come up with something better than you have so far I cannot place very much value on yours.

Sorry Stephen, i realised later that you haven't purchased your vehicle yet. As i have stated several times i have given an example of an experience i encountered with a particular vehicle - that being a Landrover Discovery. The problems my neighbour had with that particular vehicle would make even the most loyal Landrover person think twice about buying one. It certainly took the Discovery off my shopping list.
Look, at the end of the day you can take my advice or not, i really don't care. Whether Adrian just had an absolute "lemon" or not, i don't know but i have certainly based my opinion of disco's on his vehicle.
I realise all 4wd's have their problems, i know one day (touch wood) i'll have to contend with some on my jack, but i have never seen, or heard of a vehicle with the complexity or regularity of problems that this disco had - trust me, it was totally unbelievable.
It is understandable why Disco owners get on here & defend their vehicles, i only hope that they don't experience the same problems & that my example is a one-off.
Good luck with your research & purchasing, i hope you make the right decision. I certainly haven't been deliberately bagging the disco for no reason, but please take note of some of the comments on this forum before making a decision!!

Damien, I accept the fact that your opinion of the Disco has been coloured by your friend's experience. I have heard similar stories but I am hoping that LR have turned a corner with their new assembly plant and that stories like these will be a thing of the past. Disco owners seem to be more forgiving of faults because of the other attributes of the vehicle, but the last thing I want in a new car are hassles. If I hear of the problems continuing I will reluctantly cross the Disco off my list and go Japanese.

LOL!!! - I think many here would have different interpretations of that! :)

THEIR NOT THERE

Let's get back to discussing 4wd'ing, i know you're trying to be funny but you're really wasting space!!