Deep Cycle Battery Mounting

I agree.

I disagree.


VRLA batteries (Absorbed Glass Mat and Gel batteries) are perfectly safe to be mounted in any orientation. Due to their construction, they will not spill.
The valve regulated process occurs internally and there is no emission outside the battery case.

VRLA Battery facts

We had this same query a while back. I was a dealer (since retired) for a certain brand of ATV, four wheeler or quad bike or whatever you want to call them. A couple of years ago a model that had AGM batteries fitted as standard came out with the battery mounted in a different position and laying on its side. We queried this with the makers and they sent us an MSDS (safety sheet) and other info from the battery manufacturer in question assuring us that these batteries could be mounted upright, end up or side up as required with no safety or operational issues. Up to the time of the sale of the business a few months ago no dramas were reported.
Also as has been pointed out this type of battery did not have to conform to any dangerous goods requirements for transport as they were considered spill proof.
Quite a few of our machines were sold to geological survey companies and if you think you give your vehicles a hard time you need to see what these guys do.

Cheers
Pop

Oh yeh that may be so... but most of the manufacturers of quad bikes say that there is no problem with the rolling over and do not recomend roll over protection.... but still people die.


Any manufacturer will go to great lengths to justify how its product is made.

We also do not know what engineering controlls that manufacturer has employed in the specifying and out of position mounting of batteries in their product.

cheers

Hi Sandman
Perhaps you missed this???
Quote " These batteries have a pressure relief valve which will activate when the battery is recharged at high voltage, typically greater than 2.30 volts per cell" end quote

They are not fully sealed
They do vent gas &/or electrolyte if over charged
The recombination process is done internally during NORMAL charging
If that charging exceed the rate of recombination they can vent to atmosphere
IF that is blocked they can /will explode
It has nothing to do with transport
It has everything to do with USE

Peter

AMEN brother.

Hey Mr Bantam,

Not sure what quad bikes being rolled over by misuse has to do with batteries but just on that point modern cars being misused kill people and they are fitted with multiple air bags, crumple zones, side intrusion bars, ABS, traction control, body structure that has to withstand rollovers, I could go on but I hope you get the point.

Also if you have another look at my follow up the mounting position info was provided by the battery manufacturer not the ATV manufacturer. The ATV maker merely forwarded on the data. If you want to question the battery maker as to how there product should be used so be it.

Cheers
Pop

Just as an afterthought have a read of an article by Collyn Rivers regarding how AGM batteries came into being and what one of their first uses was. If I remember correctly it was something to do with aircraft use and their non spill nature and not having to be held upright.

Cheers
Pop

Well yes indeed, only too happy to question a battery manufacturer, and it would not be the first time, quite a few of them are prepared to play fast and lose with the information.

There is one australian branded importer that heavily pushes the idea that their batteries are "completely sealed" and one company is using their batteries in a product that houses them in a sealed enclosure, laying on their sides.

The batteries most certainly are not completly sealed, and the warranty on the product in question has specific exclusions regarding regulation of charging.

Other far more reputable, long standing companies, specificlay and vigorously council against such things as mounting batteries other than upright and fitting them in sealed boxes.

As for the whole "non-spilable" battery thing, that is probaly a better way of viewing "sealed batteries".

In fact in many areas "non-spillable battery" is the correct definition and far more discriptive.

NON-spillable batteries are required in marine and aircraft applications among other applications, not because they will be installed other than upright but because from time to time in operation and in crisis situations the battery may become inverted.....a leakage of acid would be a very bad thing.

It is important to understand that there are a very small number of manufacturers that make a battery that is reasonably well suited to, with care, operate other than upright....but this is far from true of all manufacturers of sealed batteries.

cheers

Oldtrack,

No I didn't miss this at all, but you are referring to an extreme situation.

In normal circumstances, where the battery is being charged by a vehicle alternator, or solar panel or a combination of both, This extreme situation you mention would not be realised.

The original poster wanted to know if he could mount a battery on its side to suit a particular mounting situation and battery manufacturers state that with VRLA batteries such as the AGM style can be safely used in this type of situation.

I am merely confirming this as a practical and intrinsically safe procedure based on manufacturers own statements.

What doomsday situation are you trying to project mate?

Hi Sand man
As you say IF everything is NORMAL

Why does the maker make that point
Simply because things can & do go wrong, with regulators , chargers etc!

The OP should be made aware of THAT so he can make his own deciision
He should have full information to make that decision on!

Peter

Hi Sandman
one of those situations can arise even with all charging systems working correctly
A low capacity cell can/does tend to be overcharged & emitting acidic gas
A partly shorted cell can/will lead to the other cells being overcharged &
emiiting acid gas
Both are typical problems with any lead acid battery & is why the cells DO HAVE VALVE REGULATED VENTS
AS Bantam has said , they are spill proof simply because they have no FREE liquid
BUT they are not fully sealed

You did note that the voltage was specified per cell?, because that is the important point

Peter

Hi Darian
You will note If you read that link of Sandman's that the specified max SAFE charge voltage is :
2.3 V PER CELL=13.8V MAX for a 12v battery
[ unless the particular maker specifies otherwise.]
Very important, no matter what position.!!
Where ever you position them , you need to take into account the corrossive effect of any acidic gas venting
Peter

I have to keep saying it.

Mounting batteries other than upright is far from intrinsicaly safe.

While it may seem that way at first, once you read all the conditions, requirements and recomendations...particularly from a number of different manufacturers.

The real risks are
If the battery is over charged or over heated or charged at an elevated temperature,it will vent and may vent acid if other than upright....have I seen this first hand, yes I have many times.
I've done the service call, cleaned up the mess and charged the customer.


Mounting batteries other than upright should be considered a choice of last resort.

I was hoping not to have to quote chapter and verse but

From Panasonic

"DO not charge the battery in upside down position....."
"Keep the battery in an upright position as a general rule"

From Diamec

" when batteries are used in vibration conditions, they shall be mounted upright...."

" transport the batteries in upright position and avoid abnormally strong shock / vibration"



As for when batteries may vent.....they may actually vent during "normal charging'

consider that the recomended charge voltages quoted are mostly at 25C
And we mostly are not using temperature compensated chargers.

quote from Fullriver

Recomended temperature ranges
Charging 0c to 40C
Discharge -15C 50 50C
storage -15C to 40C

so what the temperature under your bonnet.
Some of the batteries may be operating outside of their recomended temperature range on a hot day sitting in the shade in some hot areas in this country.

Of course there is always the question, what happens when the battery fails, or when a malfunctioning charging system overcharges the battery.

Batteries all come to the end of their life at some time......case seals, seals on vent valves and seals arround terminal all fail for one reason or another particularly in older batteries....I have seen all these different failures first hand.

If the battery is upright, there may be some leakage, if the battery is installed other than upright the leakage will be certain and far greater.
Particularly if it is one of the lesser manufacturers that has not imobilised their electrolite well.

play it safe and install batteries upright in vehicles.

cheers

Hi Bantam
An excellant sum up
Perhaps that very detailed info will convince the "experts" ? that their advice is not sound, that it should have further details as to limitations etc & is not based on long experience over a wide field ETC

It seems some cannot understand that "normal" conditions may not be so normal as some believe!
BUT, sadly from past experiences on forums ,I very much doubt you will get that through

Peter

I am fortunate that I was trained in a time and in an industry that valued reliability and integrity in its products, and where reliability was paramount and any equipment failure was considered a crisis.

A time and a market when manufacturers data, recomendations and safety information could be relied upon.

These days however, we live in an environment where everything revolves arround sales and even technical documents are moderated and edited by the marketing departments...anything that might stand in the way of a sale is omitted or watered down.

As for Material Safety and Data Sheets......don't believe you will see anything on those that does not positivly have to be there.....they are written specificaly to protect intelectual property.......and to avoid liability where possible.....so anything that amounts to a tacid admission of risk will be omotted where it conflicts with an existing recomendation or application.

In addition these days there are plenty of manufacturers out there who simply do not have a full understanding of the products they are making because they are not originators of the technology and they are working from second hand engineering, they have neither the will nor the resources to do comprehensive testing and have only a few years experience in the industry.

The battery industry is possibly one of the worst for reliable documentation. Conspicuous, is what is missing from the published data & recomendations of the majority.
The majority do not even publish full performance specifications for their products, they often hide behind obtuse marketing oriented performance indicators.
Every battery should have a simple Amp Hour capacity at the 10 hour rate specified, this is the bottom line and the common denominator, but try and find this simple straightforward figure for most automotive batteries.
God help us if we should be provided with a set of discharge curvves.

Having spoken to a couple of people more deeply immersed in the battery industry than me.....often the fully detailed data exists, but it is not openly published...and perhaps not even shared with the companies own sales staff.
AND for the most part it will be the sales staff that are answering your technical enquiries, not the true technical people.

And so we have all sorts of people at a variety of levels that assert that these sealed batteries "can be operated in any position", but failing to understand or even care about the whole picture.

Unfortunately you have drag from manufacturer to manufacturer and draw on some industry background to get the whole picture.
Even then if you ask a "hard question" that should be reasonably straight forward, you may get a decent reply from 1 in 10 enquiries, mostly you will get no more than is in the sales documents.

Some people call me synical......Damn straight......

But this issue will continue, as it has to pop up its uggly head, everytime someone reads the marketing and takes it at face value.

cheers

Hi Bantam
It seems we both come the same age
When you had to find the problem & fix it, permanently!
To do THAT you needed to understand the product ,it's limitations , ability,
the technology & a lot of background theory , often combining many subjects[electrical ,mechanical, chemical & physical.
It was not a plug & see, as it is today
Peter

I would not mount ANY battery on its side irrespective of what the manufacturers say but then again I'm a cynic.