Can you Exploroz effectivly on a Bicycle ?

Hi Landy

I guess though that the early explorers had little choice.
From what I read in Victoria they often headed off to the goldfields with a wheel barrow to.

When we were recently in the embrassing position of having trouble locating Madigan camp1 there was a bicylcle heading off to do it , he was on the wrong road to and had 2 flat tyres but seemed undeterred.

We didn't use much thought, we just drove out the possible tracks and got to it , so I guess this made it easy , but I wouldn't want to be the bike rider.

That good to know some actually do it and its practical for the short trips I envisage, we haven't carried a bike since kid time.

I can imagine that the ability to cover a couple of km easily around where ever you have stopped would be an advantage.

Its so cheap to pick up a small big tyred mountain type bike that maybe we should have on on our Xmas list and check it out more throughly on the tracks around Talbotville over Xmas - leaving out Collingwood spur etc.

That will put my research into helmet use into serious focuss.

Hi David

Looks good, have read some of your bike riding notes with interest , well done.

I can only imagine short local trips around camp for me.

I have no knowledge but I suppose there are wider stronger tyres etc more suitable for this type of work.

oops didn't mean to submit yet,
here's a few more Image Could Not Be Found
Image Could Not Be Found
Image Could Not Be Found
Image Could Not Be Found

What these pics are meant to illustrate is that whilst it can be a lot of fun, it is very hard on the bike. Both the vehicle and bike were never the same afterwards. The bike caused more stones to flick up and damage the paintwork on the rear of the vehicle too. You need to be a good cyclist and have a capable bike if you're going to tackle some the roads we take our vehicles on. We both run and ride offroad and its amazing how when we head off on pedal power over tracks we've just cruised over how tough it is. Running is very difficult over corrugations too. Hill climbing on the MTB bike in corrugated rocky roads with a bit of desert sand underneath is about the hardest physically so you can't get very far. David rode the track into the Veteors Meteroite Crater off the Gary Junction Rd and its only about 11km? each way, and he was stuffed... said it was one of the hardest rides. He was almost embarassed when we drove it in the vehicle later and it was such a doddle... so its quite deceptive.

If you're a keen cyclist you have nice bikes but even MTB bikes need looking after. Riding with caked on muck like in these pictures just doesn't make sense so finding a way to keep the working parts clean during transport is critical. Sure, we were really "out there", so nowhere was going to be clean, and the roof rack was piled as high as we dared so it wasn't going there... the rear carrier is actually pretty clever - it swings away so when we dropped down into a river/ditch and climb up the steep embankment, whilst the bike wheels touched the ground the carrier didn't take any load at it wasn't rigid, allowing the bike to "swing" and drag a little. Looked worse than it looks but you still don't want to use your "precious" bike.

Hope this provides some useful input/first hand experience.


Michelle

Replies crossed, sorry didn't notice your query re: tyres....

Standard MTB tyres are fine. They're as tough as nails (and heavy!). You can use your air compressor to pump tyres but you would take spare bike tubes.

Nice pictures Michelle.
We ride road bikes a bit. Not as much as we should these days I have to admit.
What we have done is to go to a single cab ute & put a lockable box on the tray.
The box is 2600 long, 1800 wide & 1100 high with 2 doors 2100 long.
It is 1100 high so we carry the 2 bikes inside on quick release clamps on the front forks. I am yet to make up a brace to go from the frame of the box to clamp onto the seat posts to hold the bikes steady on rough roads. So far we have only carried the bikes on bitumen & it hasn't been a problem.
We did travel with the 2 bikes inside a Nissan wagon on quick release. We also carried all our gear inside including 2 3 foot wide swags with 3 inch high density foam mattresses & a 60 litre trailblazer fridge without anything rubbing on the bikes. The only thing we carried on the roof rack was the gas bottle. The $1800 roof rack just to carry a gas bottle was a bit of overkill. I could have got 2 nice sets of rims for that.
On that trip with the bikes we didn't go off the well beaten dirt highways.
With the question of extending your travelling ability with bikes that Robin posted. I tend to think it would only be practical for people who are bike riders. We use ours for exercise on bitumen roads, so it suits us when we get to towns to go for a dawdle around.
Punctures are a big problem for us in Western regions. Running skinny road tyres at 120 psi with burs everywhere just doesn't work well.
I would love to get mountain bikes but the handbrake stops me. After getting used to lightweight roadies I would have to spend up around 6000 per bike to be happy with the weight.

Who did you inherit the knobbly knees from

Hi Fatso, nice to meet another cyclist! We are actually multisport enthusiasts so we are always in training as we compete regularly throughout the year in triathlons (summer) and adventure races (winter/spring). We each have a TT bike, Road Bike and MTB so I know exactly where you're coming from! David was in training for an Ironman 70.3 when we took these pics so he couldn't afford the time off the bike, and taking the MTB seemed a good idea at the time. If we didn't have the kids, we could have a much nicer carrying system like yours, and if we were on the bitumen we'd take nicer bikes! We have been toying for a few years about riding from Perth to Sydney actually...

Michelle
(sorry I used the wrong profile before so deleted my own post)!
PS: we have recently launched another website based on the same concept as ExplorOz, but for the Triathlon/Multisport industry, have you seen it? TriathlonOz.com

Workhorse, you just pipped me with your Birtles Post!

I just got back from Alice Springs where I learnt of his exploits - I then watched the 'wide open road' series on ABC iview and this also featured his exploits. On the weekend I went to the National Museum open day here in Canberra and low-and-behold they had Birtle’s 1925 Bean car on display!
I understand there is a good chance it will be on permanent display in the museum from next year.

details here:
http://www.nma.gov.au/collections-search/display?irn=37917

cheers
Mark

Hellow Bazooka

Maybe , maybe not -I come at this with no interest at all in bush walking or bike riding except in so far as it helps me get to places more easily.

I often take trail bikes simply because I can cover some terrain types more effectivily than by car .

Their may be cases where the small size and lightweight of bicycles may extend that reach per unit hour.

I recently had a thread here about our only driveable tunnel being closed as part of a 100km long walking/bike track.

Within our legal framework I will be able to use a low powered bike on this track and getting the best out of same is right up my line of expertise.

Hi Muzbry

At least if we got the electric model we could plug in the little stove to heat it up.

So Robin
Then you would need a trailer..

My little electric stove fits in a backpack Muz - but I reckon it would be getting crowded in the backpack with everything else - maybe we'd better stick to using the car.

Gday
I think so Robin, we will all be much happier.

Gday
Imagine trying to follow "Bonz" up that hill at the Pyrenees on a pushy....

Gez... I dunno about this! Call me cynical but the way I read this is that it's essentially suggesting that no laws should be used to protect "individuals" from known health risks! Sure, look after the environment, but not the people?? In the same breath, why bother having restrictions on the use of drugs and while we're at it, let's not enforce education on children. I personally refute this idea as the world gone mad and I would still wear a helmet even if the law said I didn't have to.

Michelle - very passionate about mandatory bike helmets as you can tell!

Probably a passionate subject Michelle , but there is no point endangering oneself , or worse putting others in danger , if the evidence points the other way.

It seems clear from the documents presented that the West Australian experience shows a massive drop in bicycle usage and consequent health issues as a result.

I haven't so far been able to come up with countering studies - still looking.

I am concerned that they've focussed on the helmet as the main deterrant to cycling - the survey that came up with this has to be questioned. At first glance, I'm not sure I see the data source for this "evidence" as conclusive, but will continue reading...

Michelle

Some interesting stuff there all right - intrigued by the fact that some other places have looked at Australias experience and decided against mandatory bike helmets as a result.

Hi Robin and Michelle,

push bikes are way cool - I'm still riding my first bike which I purchased from my own savings when 12 year old. It's got an indestructible 3 speed inhub by Sachs (Torpedo).

Anyway, I never wore a helmet for decades (didn't ride a lot either lol). Only in the last few years both my wife and myself re-discovered bike riding in the subs of Brisbane.
Just recently I purchased a street legal electric bike (well not quite legal anymore, because I was able to remove the de-tuning and it's back up to 250W from a measly 190W).

Back to the helmet laws: I'd say the government introduced this law in order to keep down financial pressures on the public health system caused by head injuries.
I never bothered finding out the pros and cons of this law, or any statistics of same.

A few months ago I put on the helmet for another ride down Kedron Brook bike track.
And that's when I noticed the rear helmet strap was coming loose because the glue had slowly disintegrated over time.
Effectively I'm now wearing the helmet purely to keep the cops happy, since it wouldn't protect much with the loose strap.

But there's one interesting side effect to this: every time I put on the helmet I'm reminded of its uselessness. This somehow hangs around in my mind during the whole trip, which probably also makes me ride a tiny bit more careful than I would with fully functional head protection.

The reverse would also be true: every time the average law abiding bike rider puts on his/her helmet, there's this inherent sense of safety which would cause a tiny bit more of risky maneuvers when on the bike.

I'm in no way sure about this, but could this psychological aspect effectively cancel (or diminish) any small gains in the bike injury stats?

If so, it would indeed make sense to address this issue from a different angle - think graphical warnings on cig packs, anti speeding campaigns etc....

Just an observation.

cheers, Peter

The helmet debate often seems to be drawn to an argument about whether helmets prevent injury or not.
If someone criticises the laws the pro helmet lobby immediately assume they are criticising helmet use. It is not always the case.
I was wearing a helmet 25 years ago. That's probably 5 years or so before the laws came in here in Qld.
In the run up to the helmet laws being introduced there was a campaign of helmet awareness that seemed to be funded by the government.
In this campaign there were adds promoting the use of helmets that had a full coverage over ones with ventilation slots in them. It went as far as to warn people away from ventilated helmets & polystyrene helmets. Everyone has either forgotten this campaign or never noticed it. We have a close affiliation to brain injury in this family & that is probably the reason we noticed & remember it.
After the helmet laws came in this campaign criticising ventilated & polystyrene helmets was dropped & the price of helmets dropped as well.
25 years back I came home with a $40 slotted polystyrene helmet & my wife made me go back & buy an $80 fibreglass one.The $40 one was not the top of the range & neither was the $80 one. Before the laws I can't remember seeing cheap helmets. The $40 one I bought would have been 5 hours wages for a boilermaker. They were only taking home under $8 per hour back then. Now most boilermakers won't go to work for less than $30 per hour.
Working on the ratio of wages to price that would make the average non-competition recommended bike helmet worth almost $300 & it would be fibreglass as mine was.
Does anybody remember how much they paid for a bike helmet 25 years ago?
So when it comes to bike helmet laws I am against them as they now stand. I am not against wearing helmets. Just the laws.
I have been discouraged from riding my bike because of the helmet laws & I think it is ridiculous.
Being fair skinned I have to wear sunscreen. It is also a fact that more Australian cyclists will die from sun related cancers than from brain injury.
So what do I do? Do I take off my hat, put on sunscreen, wait ten minutes for it to take effect & then ride to where I want to be & end up with a greasy sunscreen covered face. 15 minutes preparation for a 10 minute ride.
No way. I leave my hat on & hop in my 4x4 & drive.
My wife spends a lot of money on her hair. Do you think she wants to turn up in the shopping centre being the only 50 year old woman with helmet hair.
So these little 10 kph utility rides that go around the corner don't happen in Australia any more.
All that is left behind is the lycra set. Ever notice how when there is public criticism of cycling they bring up lycra. It's because the only cyclists left are the exercise, social & competitive riders that wear lycra. We would predominately wear helmets on these rides regardless of whether there were helmet laws or not.
Then the rides where we would not wear helmets, we drive cars like everyone does.
Back to the issue of what doctors say. There was a reference in one of Robins previous threads about trauma doctors & their opinion.
The pro helmet lobby always refers to comments by neurologist & trauma surgeons. Never do they refer to cardiac doctors, diabetes doctors or doctors that deal with obesity or even skin cancer. These are the doctors who are dealing with the epidemics being generated by a lethargic society.

I used to ride a fair bit, but haven't since the helmet laws. Probably means I'm a goose, but that's what happened.

On the laws against drugs subject, we can't keep drugs out of strictly controlled environments like prisons, so what hope general society. All that we are doing is making the crims rich. Prohibition didn't work against alcohol, and has proved to be a failure against drugs. Make it legal, available at the Chemist, and prevent the rest of us having to worry about being involved in a druggies crime spree to get the required money.

As I see it we all have our pet 'hates', but it's only some who can force their will on others. I can't believe the number of rules we have to obey, it's no wonder we have so much anti-social behaviour.


Paul

Hi Peter , Fatso

Thanks for taking time to write thought through replies.

It seems that we have overwhelming support for the key statement that whatever we may say, the on the ground effect of mandatory laws has seen a deep and sustained drop in cycling.
Often for reasons as outlined by Fatso.

Few would disagree that cycling has health benefits and from this the estimate of losing 3250 lifetimes from reduced riding has plausibility.

This is a huge figure, but we also know that smoking or being vegertarian have greater effects on lifespan , yet with this knowledge many still choose the harmful option.

As I was getting up today , the radio reported a price waterhouse study outlining future heatwave increases and said that in our Black Saturday Victorian fires 173 died but in the same week and almost un-noticed 374 died directly from heatwave heatstoke.
This is consistent with a human tendency to focus on the hear & now or dramatic & violent.

A telling curve is the injury picture of WA hospitals admissions (grapth at bottom of )
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/results.html#WA cyclist fatalities
This shows an increase in car accidents, and no change in bicyle injuries despite a 30% drop in bike usage as the laws came in.

On the actual injuries, there is quite a mix , with the average showing a nett reduction in head injuires , and an increase in upper body and neck injuries.

My conclusions from all this are that government policy for mandatory helmet laws on bicycles (not-motor bikes)
should be repealed on public health grounds.


Well that amy be ok overall but a harder question is, would I use a helmet ?
When it comes to motor bikes the research is much clearer and we don't let anyone ride motor bikes on our properties without a helmet.

Cutting this post short, on reading all the stuff it seems that the risk profile is different for different classes of bicycle riders.

My type of riding would be exploring , slow speeds and with a low level of cars around and in this profile I don't see the proof to support helmet use. bicycling.


P.S. Peter, you may have the right idea, I read that there have been several cases of death by helmet strap.

Robin

I wouldn't just focus on car accidents, plenty of ways to come off a bike without a car being involved. As I said in another thread, 25 years ago a helmet saved my live when a car hit me, no tow ways about it.

Last night I did about 70klms on a road bike at at average speed of around 30klm per hour, dedicated bike track with no cars, but no way would I ride without the helmet. The downside is I come off for whatever reason and hit a concrete curb or the like...what is my upside from not wearing it?

Everyone to their own, but personally I think those that don't wear a helmet have got nothing to lose, but its a choice you make as an individual.

Not good here at making emotional descisions, can only go with the data and
if you go through this head statisticans document then its all over and he works for Cycle-safe.

http://www.cycle-helmets.com/c2022.pdf

The documents seriously worth reading as he doesn't seem to cherry pick and
comes up with different insights to what is really going on - specialy when they get into the HRT therapy conundrum (I don't think you or I will need that).

In your post you outline a point we all can see which is that there are several
senarios for bike riding, and the one without cars is a lot healthier.

The tricky one is identifying the mechanism of severe injuries.
The saftey in numbers arguement is quite compelling , but when your
riding by yourself this doesn't apply.


If we rule out "discouragement" the document seems to show that the confounding arguement dominates.

I.E. People wearing a helmet believe it is safter and go faster - and this
reaction dominates any potential helmet benefits.

I have always been a believer in primary saftey over secondary safety , but
coming in cold on this I am prepared to be persuded but there just doesn't seem to be the evidence.

Robin

Most of us have car insurance (I’m betting you do), but none of us ever intend to have an accident. I’m sure I could pull out any number of statistics that prove many drivers will go right through their driving career without having one, think of the savings! But it is a case of being too late to get it once you actually need it.

A bike helmet could be viewed much the same way, why wear one if you don’t intend to fall on your head? I guess because it will be far too late to reach for one as you hurtle towards the pavement as something you never expected to happen, happens.

Personally, I think this is a case of over-analyses and over-think. Wear one if you what, don’t if you’re not inclined...

For me, it is firmly attached each and every time I’m on the bike!


Enjoy your weekend...

Robin
Your link is to a page that is not research. It is cutting and pasting from various sources to defend a point of view!

Whilst it the page states that the conclusions have never been challenged, I do note that there is no reference to the author (and note that the authorship of any of the webpage statements are not ascribed to anybody) submitting any of the findings to peer review, either in a medical journal, a road safety journal or even statistical journal.

The conclusions have not been challenged because it has apparently never been submitted for challenge.

There is no reference that anybody has ever cast their eye over this to confirm the analysis of the source material, the accuracy of some of the statements made or conclusions drawn from a statistical or research basis have even a modicum of validity.

The only reference to any author is the web-site maintainer, whose CV is that of a writer, graphic artist, photographer and real estate agent.

It’s a blog with somebody with a personal barrow to push (which is the ability to ride without a helmet) under the guise of research.

It’s interesting to do a bit of research on the webmaster and follow through some of his links...one ends up with a certain attitude as to his world view

Sorry-
Delet the reference to real estate developer in the above epistle; I shouldn't try and do three things at once

Your reffering to the top page Nargun

The author of page In my last link is clearly shown as Dr Dorothy Robinson Snr Statistican of Cycle - Safe and whole bottom of that page is in index of many authorative refferences.

You could hardly do better !

Well worth a read for anyone genuinely looking to approach the issue open mindedly.

He looks happy enough Richard

I'm entering the retirement window Frank so time may not be an issue , although I imagine it may take years to get out of the sometimes minute by minute work battles.

I guess the Simpson would be quite a riding mixure with lots of pushing , or would one carry the bike up sand dunes- I'm thinking of riding with close vehicle support - not like in the picture in the post above yours.
(have taken my trailbike across Simpson)

I guess personal experience would sway one towards a Hemlet , but the problem is that only survivors get to tell their story.
Coming in cold onto the helmet issue it has really surprized me to even find such strong anti links as the one I have posted - you just can't find that sort of thing for motor bike helmets.

I have just found my towbar mounted push bike carrier - covered in cob webs from the kid-days - now I just need to adjust my Xmas wish list.

Simpson Desert Bike Classic