Aboriginal Lands Permits - Totally Unhappy! I mean, REALLY UNHAPPY!

personally I have much bigger issues with pastoral leases

- they are not owned like aboriginal land but are crown land
- there is no permit system
- they effect much larger areas
- alot more different bodys are involved in tying up those aeas

John, I agree absolutely.

I am also in the throes of obtaining permits for a similar route to yours.
Even the simplest and very common route of the Great Central Road requiring a permit from Laverton to the WA/NT border is frustrating. It is issued online but you must choose between transit of 'less than 3 days' whereupon it can be issued immediately, or 'more than 3 days' whereupon the application "must be referred to the aboriginal community which could take a number of weeks and is not guaranteed." This is simply unreasonable as the permit is issued for specific days and it is impossible to be certain of your itinerary some 5 weeks and 5000km ahead of time. If a permit system is employed it must be reasonable.

Like you John, I respect aboriginal interests including the Uluru climb. However the provisions for aboriginals in Australia is verging on racial segregation as in apartheid. I do not believe that is the way to progress the Australian nation. Certainly the aboriginal settlements are private communities and entry may be by invitation but it is unreasonable to restrict travel on public roads by persons on private activity.

I will join you in a campaign for improvement in this matter. It will not be easy and possibly the way is to convince a national 4WD organization to lead the charge. Perhaps a start could be made right here on ExplorOz with a "Poll" followed if appropriate with an downloadable petition. (Note that 'electronic' petitions are not accepted, it must be on paper and signed with full name and address)

I agree about "rednecks". It is no good ranting and raving about these matters. They must be dealt with using logic, compromise, and cogent argument.

Hi John

You have me on your side for this one, a real joke when applying.

Cheers

Stephen

ps, have great trip.

In instances like this there is no doubt a distinction between the people who wish to have the permits in place (the Aboriginal communities) and the bureaucracy that administers it.
It might be safe to assume that those wanting the permits would prefer the system streamlined as well so at least the monies you pay for the permits could go straight into their accounts via internet than waiting for snail mail.

I think all of us are tired and angry with the idiocy of large disorganised organisations (Telstra, local government, etc) that we have to deal with regularly.

Maybe it's a case of not shooting the messenger, but trying to separate these issues as often this debate can be hijacked by other interests that have different agendas which have no real concern with what is being discussed here; ie respecting people's land, allowing fair access at a fair price and it being done in a reasonable time frame.
Michael

There are just too many levels of "government" across what we want to do including disperate Aboriginal groups. If 4wd'ers were truely valued a higher tier of Government would step in to facilitate some co-ordination etc. For most of us we don't have the time and/or the knowledge to work our way through the mire of administration etc that must be satisfied inorder to gain permits. Just too hard eh!
I am not opposed to the requirements for permits, these are understood, but hey how hard does it have to be?

I think it's time for the Feds to provide some solution, perhaps fund an agency or the like to act as a issuer on behalf of all the stakeholders. If that fails then I reckon there's a job for an enterprising person to set up a brokering business and to undertake this work on behalf of the applicant? Perhaps one of the large 4wd clubs? Could also provide some additional advocacy on the subject as well?

Just my thoughts.

It has often occurred to me that we have an apartheid system. Look at the 'no go' areas on a map of oz.

I do understand the sensibilities of indigenous aussies, but they can travel through the rest of oz without permits....

Hi all.

Thks for your responses on this. And I am heartened by the tone. Usually this topic floats over to a land rights debate. What I am on about is getting a sensible balance between the broader rights of everyone to have access to at least transit through remote country and the rights of Traditional Owners to manage their country.

As more and more people are getting out into these lands, the solution on the part of the TOs seems to be to lock away some tracks (most recently Calvert Range and Carnarvon Range) and hope the problem goes away. Or put rigmarole processes in the way.

But the problem not going to go away. It is going to get worse. And lockouts will become less acceptable as pressures for access increase with more and more travellers on the tracks. Eventually this will become a numbers game and the numbers will win. They always do.

So we need to find a way that manages and respects the lands, and provides more systematic access.

Cheers.

I believe that if a road is marked on a map like the GCR then a permit should not be required but in cases of these isolated roads contact with some authority like the police should be made for the travellers own safety.

Some years ago I went through all that ( all the required permits) to do the GCR, NT and Kimberley and I never was stopped by anybody or asked by anybody once if I had any permits for the whole journey...Perth to Alice Springs to Kakadu, Arnhem Land, GRR, Cape Leveque etc etc.....even the Mereenie Loop, which required a one day pass that had to be applied for, purchased and used that day only ( I used mine the next day, heh heh).....BUT as I said NOT once was I asked for any of them.
One Arm Point I had to pay a fee just to be there and look around which took some searching to find the office so that I could pay the money and to be really honest they could care less if I had one or not.

So I have to ask the question, " if you did not get any permit what can happen to you ?..... a huge fine, death by firing squad, imprisonment without parole, confiscation of vehicle and all assets including wife and children....Now there's a thought.

To be honest I am tempted to go and do the same journey and not bother with any of that stuff EXCEPT for the state government landcare ones. ( I have a yearly parks pass every year)

My thoughts on this ?
If you are born in this great country you shouldn't need any permit to visit and explore it regardless of the colour of your skin.
We are all equal Australians once we are born here (or so we should be) and regardless of background and colour this land is ours to live on and look after.
It disappoints and frustrates me when i cant go into parts of this land, especially when i am employed in the ADF to protect it and its interests...

Good luck John and i fully support your thoughts and i am sure alot of others i live and work with would do the same.

(P.S. I am currently based in remote NT so i know exactly what you are frustrated about).

John: I share your frustration and am inclined to support you however I'm not sure if I'm eligible - you said, "Note. Rednecks need not apply!".

I'm unsure what you mean by that, would you please clarify?

NM

Hi John

Which ones can't you do on line? The CLC in NT has it all over the DIA in WA for on line permits within 24 hours. Commonly travelled routes such as the Great Central are no problem, but lesser used ones such as Sandy Blight Junction and Gary Junction where there are delays which can be in excess of three weeks is not really workable for the touring traveller. These can all be applied for and sent to you on line. I raised the issue with the WA Minister for Indigenous Affairs after our Gary Junction permit fiasco in 2009 and i had hoped his investigation and directive would have improved the system - maybe not?

Motherhen

I agree with some of the others on this subject. PC in this country has gone mad, way beyond normal reasoning. The restraints on people traveling parts of their own country is unbelievable. The current government has now decided to tax air, soon we will need permission to fart! ( or identify the original owner, debate "ownership", and then put a fee or tax on it!)
Capt.

Make of this what you want, but as far as Im concerned you dont need permits in NT if your just travelling through on gazetted roads.

IMPORTANT NOTE:

The previous Australian government made changes to how permits apply inside communities.

The main changes are that permits are not required to enter ‘common areas' (areas generally considered to be public space), or to attend a court case, inside communities.

These changes legally came into effect on 18 February 2008.

The new Australian government's policy is to abolish these changes but allow permit free access for journalists and contractors.

At this stage it is not clear when that policy might be implemented. During this interim period, the CLC requests that all visitors to Aboriginal land comply with the CLC's permit system as outlined below, notwithstanding that the legal position has changed with regard to certain community access.

Regardless of any government changes, a permit is legally required to visit any Aboriginal land outside of communities . Also see the CLC map for which access roads require a permit.

The CLC thanks all visitors for cooperation with this request of traditional owners to continue to follow the principle of asking permission before entering Aboriginal land.

If you have any questions about the permit system please contact the CLC on permits

Don't bother with permits. Nobody checks them anyway.

Good Luck with all that John. Trying to co-ordinate out back travellers that rarely visit the area to protest a permit system that spans several states and territories run by dozens of agencies to gain access to sensitive areas where historically we have a disrespect and total lack of understanding of the local people.
Best you build a bridge and get over the permit system as from my experience it would be far easier to solve world peace than it would be to change the minds of so many beaurecrats ;-)
Cheers Craig....

I'll join in


Andrew
"Get mad and carry on"

It' not just Indigenous Lands.

Last year I attended the gathering at Willuna.
For the trip over on the Anne Beadell, up the CSR then home via the GCR I had to obtain 8 permits. Some online and others by fax and snailmail.
The non indigenious ones included ground zero and the national parks along the Anne Beadell.

No problem obtaining them but you have to plan well in advance and luckily the trip went to plan and we were able to keep to the deadlines.

I have also obtained permits in past years as well but never been asked for one.

This site is a great resource as to what's required as it seems to be an absolute minefield with no consistency.

If you think it's difficult as a private traveller, compliance with all the regulations to run tours across Australia is a much tougher ballgame. ;)

Wow. Over 2000 views.

There's obviously a lot of interest in this dog's breakfast.

And, now a lot of info by contributors.

As ever, this Forum is gold.

Cheers.

No doubt functionality of getting permits issued doesn’t work too well for the average four-wheel drive traveller wanting to traverse lands that require a permit. And I’m all for some sort of action to change this.

However, before jumping to action the question needs to be asked why do we have them in the first place; I’m asking rhetorically as I know it has been asked many times! Often it is cited that no-one checks permits even when coming across aboriginal groups and people, and I suspect this is due to the fact that mostly they don’t care that you are travelling that area...

I fear the reason we have a permit system is less to do with the wishes of the greater percentage of aboriginal communities, and more to do with government policy under the guile of our bureaucrats, mostly Canberra based. Having a permit system gives the government the ability to stop anyone they like visiting indigenous communities, reporters for instance, people who may actually speak out on what ‘really happens’ in these communities and cause embarrassment to the government of the day, regardless of who is in power. The unintended consequence of this is that groups like those represented here on Exploroz are affected. For the most part I think you will find four-wheel drive travellers are granted access they request, provided it is not a sensitive area of great cultural significance, or there are no ceremonies taking place at the time.

It could be argued that by having a permit system the greater aboriginal population in these areas are actually being discriminated against by not being allowed access to outsiders and I know many might find that comment a little perverse, but think about it and please read and keep the comment in the context they offered (before beating me up!). This has been raised by many in aboriginal communities.

My point is that the very people that you are going to potentially argue and plead your case to, the Federal Government, and the ‘Canberra Bureaucracy’ may very well be the same people who have put in place the permit system to keep control on who goes there for reasons that have nothing to do with a group of four-wheel drivers wanting to get out and see Australia... I think that will be the real challenge here.

For those interested, have a read about Papunya, an aboriginal community in the Western Desert region...Australian journalist Richard Skelton has recently written on the community, a great insight...