Does an older Diesel engine really need low ash oil?

Submitted: Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 10:37
ThreadID: 17347 Views:14055 Replies:4 FollowUps:7
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I have searched for past posts on this topic … I’ve got lots of posts on crashes and dashes, the odd flash and bash but not much on ash!

The bulk oil seller where I get my oil recommends that I should use either a 15W40 or a 10W40-semi synthetic high detergent diesel oil, since I fitted the turbo to my 2.8 Hilux. The only thing is his oils are not low ash.

My question being, is low ash oil necessary in older type diesels? The owners manual for my ’92 Hilux 2.8D recommends using CC or CD rated oil (minimum) for the engine.

On the other hand the guy who fitted the denco turbo says that I should run low ash oil and drop the oil back to a 15W40.

Up till now I’ve been using “no name” 20W50 diesel oil, which is CF rated, hi detergent (but not low ash) which I get from the oil seller for about $60 for 20litres - I supply the drum. The Hilux has only done 193,000km and a recent compression test had all the cylinders at manufacturer’s specs.

Cheers Anthony
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Reply By: GUPatrol - Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 10:57

Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 10:57
Anthony,

You should be using low ash mainly because the engine is an indirect injection diesel.
You should also be using 15w40.

Look at Castrol RX Super, Shell Rimula X or similar...

William
AnswerID: 81883

Follow Up By: Anthony - Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 11:16

Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 11:16
William,

I had thought about going back to a known brand higher quality oil. I previously ran Penrite for the first 100,000km before I started using the cheaper oil.

I don't know what the rating of the oils you listed are but I was thinking that I don't want to use the CH-4 and better rated oils as they may be to effcient in cleaning the engine and lead to burning oil. From what I understand, if you do use the CH or CI onwands rated oils it could take up to 12 months before the engine settles down and stops burning oil.

At least ... thats what I'm told ... I open to other points of view - thanks Anthony
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FollowupID: 341038

Reply By: Member - Captain (WA) - Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 11:25

Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 11:25
Hi Anthony,

I think there is a bit of confusion here, ash is a measure of detergency. So a high ash oil has a high detergent content and conversely a low ash oil has a low detergent content.

A laymans way of understanding the way the ash ratings are worked out is to measure how much ash an oil can hold in suspension. It takes a certain amount of detergent to do this, so the more detergent, the more ash an oil can hold in suspension (not strictly true, but you get the idea!).

As for your Hilux, a CF rated oil has an ash content of around 1.3 (from memory), a so called high ash oil (also high detergent!). I would stick to the CF or go to CH oil (both similair ash content) but avoid the CG as this has low ash in comparison. I would also stick to "name" oils, only because for the few extra $$ you know what you are getting and good oil is cheap engine insurance IMHO.

Cheers

Captain
AnswerID: 81889

Follow Up By: Anthony - Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 11:42

Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 11:42
Hi Captain,

Thanks for giving me the basics on oils ... I will check out the prices for the 20litre drums for the better quality 15W40 oils rated CF and CH.

Thanks again ... cheers Anthony
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FollowupID: 341040

Follow Up By: GUPatrol - Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 15:00

Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 15:00
All you ever wanted to know about motor oil

Choosing the best motor oil is a topic that comes up frequently in discussions between motoheads, whether they are talking about motorcycles or cars. The following article is intended to help you make a choice based on more than the advertising hype.

Oil companies provide data on their oils most often referred to as "typical inspection data". This is an average of the actual physical and a few common chemical properties of their oils. This information is available to the public through their distributors or by writing or calling the company directly. I have compiled a list of the most popular, premium oils so that a ready comparison can be made. If your favorite oil is not on the list get the data from the distributor and use what I have as a data base.


This article is going to look at six of the most important properties of a motor oil readily available to the public: viscosity, viscosity index (VI), flash point, pour point, % sulfated ash, and % zinc.

Viscosity is a measure of the "flowability" of an oil. More specifically, it is the property of an oil to develop and maintain a certain amount of shearing stress dependent on flow, and then to offer continued resistance to flow. Thicker oils generally have a higher viscosity, and thinner oils a lower viscosity. This is the most important property for an engine. An oil with too low a viscosity can shear and loose film strength at high temperatures. An oil with too high a viscosity may not pump to the proper parts at low temperatures and the film may tear at high rpm.

The weights given on oils are arbitrary numbers assigned by the S.A.E. (Society of Automotive Engineers). These numbers correspond to "real" viscosity, as measured by several accepted techniques. These measurements are taken at specific temperatures. Oils that fall into a certain range are designated 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 by the S.A.E. The W means the oil meets specifications for viscosity at 0 F and is therefore suitable for Winter use.

The following chart shows the relationship of "real" viscosity to their S.A.E. assigned numbers. The relationship of gear oils to engine oils is also shown.

_______________________________________________________________
| |
| SAE Gear Viscosity Number |
| ________________________________________________________ |
| |75W |80W |85W| 90 | 140 | |
| |____|_____|___|______________|________________________| |
| |
| SAE Crank Case Viscosity Number |
| ____________________________ |
| |10| 20 | 30 | 40 | 50 | |
| |__|_____|____|_____|______| |
______________________________________________________________
2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 38 40 42
viscosity cSt @ 100 degrees C

Multi viscosity oils work like this: Polymers are added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot.

Multi viscosity oils are one of the great improvements in oils, but they should be chosen wisely. Always use a multi grade with the narrowest span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going to encounter. In the winter base your decision on the lowest temperature you will encounter, in the summer, the highest temperature you expect. The polymers can shear and burn forming deposits that can cause ring sticking and other problems. 10W-40 and 5W-30 require a lot of polymers (synthetics excluded) to achieve that range. This has caused problems in diesel engines, but fewer polymers are better for all engines. The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content. It is the oil that lubricates, not the additives. Oils that can do their job with the fewest additives are the best.

Very few manufactures recommend 10W-40 any more, and some threaten to void warranties if it is used. It was not included in this article for that reason. 20W-50 is the same 30 point spread, but because it starts with a heavier base it requires less viscosity index improvers (polymers) to do the job. AMSOIL can formulate their 10W-30 and 15W-40 with no viscosity index improvers but uses some in the 10W-40 and 5W-30. Mobil 1 uses no viscosity improvers in their 5W-30, and I assume the new 10W-30. Follow your manufacturer's recommendations as to which weights are appropriate for your vehicle.

Viscosity Index is an empirical number indicating the rate of change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. Higher numbers indicate a low change, lower numbers indicate a relatively large change. The higher the number the better. This is one major property of an oil that keeps your bearings happy. These numbers can only be compared within a viscosity range. It is not an indication of how well the oil resists thermal breakdown.

Flash point is the temperature at which an oil gives off vapors that can be ignited with a flame held over the oil. The lower the flash point the greater tendency for the oil to suffer vaporization loss at high temperatures and to burn off on hot cylinder walls and pistons. The flash point can be an indicator of the quality of the base stock used. The higher the flash point the better. 400 F is the minimum to prevent possible high consumption. Flash point is in degrees F.

Pour point is 5 degrees F above the point at which a chilled oil shows no movement at the surface for 5 seconds when inclined. This measurement is especially important for oils used in the winter. A borderline pumping temperature is given by some manufacturers. This is the temperature at which the oil will pump and maintain adequate oil pressure. This was not given by a lot of the manufacturers, but seems to be about 20 degrees F above the pour point. The lower the pour point the better. Pour point is in degrees F.

% sulfated ash is how much solid material is left when the oil burns. A high ash content will tend to form more sludge and deposits in the engine. Low ash content also seems to promote long valve life. Look for oils with a low ash content.

% zinc is the amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti- wear additive. The zinc is only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine. Hopefully the oil will do its job and this will rarely occur, but if it does, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing and wear. A level of .11% is enough to protect an automobile engine for the extended oil drain interval, under normal use. Those of you with high revving, air cooled motorcycles or turbo charged cars or bikes might want to look at the oils with the higher zinc content. More doesn't give you better protection, it gives you longer protection if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high. High zinc content can lead to deposit formation and plug fouling.


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FollowupID: 341082

Follow Up By: Anthony - Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 15:38

Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 15:38
Thanks William for doing the research and posting the info.

After reading the above, I won't be use a 10W50 semi synthetic oil as suggested by my oil supplier.

From the info provided by yourself and Captian ... the correct approach for the 2.8 Hilux is:-

* use "brand" name oils only
* use 15W40 (due to turbo being fitted)
* CF or CH rated but not CG rated oils
* Select the lowest "ash rating" offered by the above 3 points.

Thanks again guys - Anthony
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FollowupID: 341089

Follow Up By: GUPatrol - Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 16:30

Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 16:30
Anthony,
One more thing... Very important!
Change the oil often!! None of the 10000kms #$% or even the 8000kms #$%.
Change oil every 5000kms at least. Specially if you do short trips, bear in mind that short trips is not only 5 10 min trips, it takes at least 30 minutes for a diesel to fully warm up, so if all your trips were 300kms 10000kms intervals are OK...
All the manuals have an asterisc on servicing under severe conditions, everyone assumes severe is "hard" but severe for an engine is cold and start up/warmup...
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FollowupID: 341101

Reply By: Member - Captain (WA) - Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 16:47

Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 16:47
Hi Anthony,

Be careful about "low ash" oils. Lubricating oil detergent additives contain metallic derivatives, such as barium, calcium, and magnesium sulfonates, that are common sources of ash. This is why you can use ash content as an "indication" of detergent content. Having low ash often means having low detergent concentration.

On quality oils, ash is closely correleated to detergent content hence the advise to look for "high ash". Detergent contents are not generally listed like ash content hence my original advise.

Choosing the right oil is not as easy as it seems. Perhaps the best advise I have seen here is by GUPatrol to change the oil every 5,000kms (as i do - even with a quality oil on a vehicle with a recommended 10,000km change interval).

Hope not to confuse you further, but there is a world of contradictory information about oils and it is not always easy to understand.

Cheers

Captain

AnswerID: 81956

Follow Up By: ColinD - Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 20:50

Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 20:50
I was only aware that the Detroit Diesel two stroke needed low ash, the 'V' series is probably the sweetest sounding engine around...............col
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FollowupID: 341148

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Thursday, Oct 28, 2004 at 01:54

Thursday, Oct 28, 2004 at 01:54
too true, they do sound sweet, til they dont anymore!! then they sound expensive and thirsty!! fishing boats with the two stroke GM sound like they are doing 30 knots when they are still tied to the wharf!! And they also use a mono grade oil, DD40
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FollowupID: 341182

Reply By: Mark- Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 20:05

Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 at 20:05
I dont profess to be an oil expert but here is my 2c worth.
I have always used Castrol GTX diesel which I buy from my Castrol distributor by the 20 litre drum. Last time I asked him how much the RX super was and he asked me how many km the engine had done. Its done quite a few and he said that the latest spec oils ie RX Super etc may actually have too much of a cleaning effect and cause an older engine to start burning oil. He said this info came directly from Castrol.

Anywa I didnt take the risk and am sticking to the GTX Diesel and my 5000k oil changes.
AnswerID: 81986

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