Just when you think you have seen everything

Larger than the cables used to start D11 dozers?
Not a very well designed system.
If the inverter is large enough or far away from the batteries to need cable that size then 24 or 48 volts should be considered.
Cost and weight is another issue, decent quality 120mm2 cable is in the vicinity of $85 per metre and comming in at 1.1kg.

120mm squared cable would be way more than a winch would need too.
I'm not even sure what current it would be rated at, the chart I use only goes to 4×0 B&S and that's 399 amps continious, 120 is 20% heavier. If a winch drew anywhere near that for5 minutes it would be toast.

Manywinches use 350-400+amps when in use under hard conditions. Using a gauge a lot higher helps illiminate heat and guarantees full amperage is available. Voltage drop is not an issue. Competition winches use higher amps. This cable is a way overkill on a caravan though.

How lithium batteries have changed the world. Not that long ago a 350 amp load on a battery for more than a few seconds would have been the end of it.
I'd hate to put my hand on a winch that had been pulling 300 plus amps for 5 minutes.

What is the CCA of your crank battery? 600A?, 900A?
"CCA measures the number of amps a battery can produce for 30 seconds while maintaining at least 7.2 volts at a temperature of 0°F (-18°C)"

My winch draws 600A at stall.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

When I was in retail you had to check with the individule battery companies, there was no set parameters for the rating, temperatures and times were often varied and very few brand new batteries held up when we did our own tests just to shut the reps up.
Don't believe everything you read.

Whatever method they used, it will be a lot more than "a 350 amp load on a battery for more than a few seconds" and it would not be "the end of it".
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

Ahhh yes I forgot, in this forum you can't write anything that may have a slight exaggeration to make a generalisation, I'll have to remember to have a solicitor proofread future posts.

Hope you have a merry and factually perfect christmas.

Oh bugger I didn't use a capital in christmas, so sorry, dam, did it again.

It is like a sideshow alley QC. The guns are aimed and just waiting for the ducks to appear.

Too true Allan,the prize should be a box of common sense, but then that would be wasted, better off with a pair of fluffy dice.

Would now be a good time to suggest that the correct spelling is 'damn?'
No, probably not. (Said he having a giggle)

Paul

Paul.
Don't start on incorrect SPALLING!

Maybe if the batteries were on the rear bumper of a 30 foot van and the 8kw inverter was in the drawbar toolbox.

I think it's just he has been listening to to many FB experts.

I can't imagine any practical application it would be needed in a caravan.

It was posted in a forum which recieved so much flack the OP deleted the thread.
It was only to run a 3kw inverter.

Why “flack”? He probably wants to keep voltdrop under 20mV. lol

Probably means something like this


Regards

TrevorDavid

Both posts very interesting.
Trevor, what brand is that, 4×0 Tycab is just short of 100mm squared.

QC,

I’m thinking the key word is Nearest.

Elcon Code LHDN120
Nearest AWG 0000 AWG
Strand No. / Size 1653/0.3
Nominal Area (mm²) 120mm
**AMP Rating @ 30°C 487 A
Insulation Thickness V90HT (mm) 1.6mm
Electrical Resistance @ 20°C (ohm/km) 0.2O
Nominal O.D. (mm) 20.0mm
Mass (kg/100m) 124.0kg


Rather large battery cable.

Regards

TrevorDavid

Yes it seems a bit vague.
I've used tycab cables for many years and CMA before that so have taken their specs as my normal, it is what I am used to.
But looking around a bit different companies seem to call whatever cable whatever they want.
4*0 is ( rounded up or down) 99, 103, 107 and now it seems 120 mm squared, and if I kept looking pretty sure there would be more. There are so many charts on the net it is impossible to find a draught of the original standard, and I doubt it would have even included cable that big. From what I've read it is an algorithm for surface area so all the other specs on the charts should be from the manufacturer depending on what composition of copper its made from, not the people selling it.
I guess when the standard was devised their weren't that many cable manufacturers and in those days the need for battery cable heavier than 4*0 would never be needed especially in 12 volt applications.
Caravan manufacturers will have to go to a 24 volt standard just has every other industry that needs that much energy in single applications.
Even the largest electric drive dump trucks I've seen up close only use 4*0 cables in their propulsion systems, that's all the energy of a 20 cylinder marine diesel engine, but it is done at up to 4kv.
My view is anyone designing a system at 12 volts that needs heavier cable than 100mm squared has been reading too much shit on FB.

Quote "There are so many charts on the net it is impossible to find a draught of the original standard, and I doubt it would have even included cable that big."

The original standards are still around. The problem is you have to get into those standards associations, which is a bit like trying to access AS/NZS standards.I think that the people who prepared these Wikipedia pages would have had access to the original information.

IEC 60228 - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge - - British Standard Wire Gauge

Use the figures in the tables in those pages to cross check charts from other sources.

Thanks for the link Peter,
Is the British Standard BS, the same as the Brown & Sharpe B&S sheet metal gauge that the AWG copies (apparently according to Wikipedia) ?

There is also an article on Brown & Sharpe but I did not include it as there was no table within the article. The first paragraph may give you a clue.

I did not have much to do with wire gauges when I was involved with that sort of thing. Our department (DCA) used a sizing that was referred to by the number of strands in a cable times the decimal inch diameter of each strand. The terminology is still used but has been metricated, for example 1.6mm cable would be referred to as 7/0.25 and 3.2mm cable would have been 32/0.2.

There is another page to look up Wire gauge. It gives more detail than Allan B offered in the reply following this long one.

The second paragraph under the heading makes mention of Brown & Sharpe. In it, they state "This is now the American wire gauge (AWG), and is prevalent in North America."

Yes Peter, the whole thing became a shambles powered by egos and whatever until the ISO standards became norm. The Australian automotive industry still offers cable rated by "Amps" or mm of outside diameter over the plastic!!! Do they have some agenda or are they just stupid?

"Do they have some agenda or are they just stupid?"

I think the agenda is to sell something with a large size number with only a small amount of copper in it. The stupid ones are those who purchase it and not looking at the small print to see what they are actually getting.

Peter, You may well be right about an "agenda". We are being conned all the time.

Allan.
Although mentioned a while ago, wire is also seen in an INVERSE way for area.
I know the industry and all who work in it, or have to work with it, must accept that the description of area isn't correct. As QLD posted, 120mm squared is 120mm x 120mm conductor size. A real Post indeed. Not true in fact, it isn't a post of solid copper 120mm x 120mm it is 120squared mm, ie, the area of 120 individual square mm. Everytime is see it represented as mm SQ, I have to mentally convert to SQ MM, because that is what they really mean, but it isn't what is stated. it is just as easy to show it as Sqmm. All out of whack to me. The size 120mm sq is 14,400 sqmm. Any surveyor doesn't work the way the electrical industry does with area.
If there is a good reason why it is Frack to Bunt, I would like to know why!

.
Hi R, Permit me to call you by your first name as we appear to be getting along quite well.

I at least, who worked in the electrical industry, do not accept that "the description of area isn't correct" whatever that may be referring to. We certainly use the description correctly, or at least understandably, with convenient shorthand expressions. You will hear electricians saying " Hand me that roll of 6 mil will you?"
He knows, and anyone working with him knows, that he is referring to cable with an area dimension of six square millimetres. If you don't know, then maybe you shouldn't be working with it?

The description of cross sectional area of cable is quite well defined but some difficulty can arise when typing it. My computer keyboard for example does not provide for a superscript 2 which is used to indicate the square function when writing cable area expressions. But understanding that limitation, all but a very few pedantics or plain idiots seem able to accept and understand that when, in context, I write "16 mm2" that I am referring to a cable that has a cross-sectional area of "sixteen squared millimetres" and NOT sixteen millimetres squared. To alternately type it as "16 2mm" could cause perilous confusion in being mistaken for "162" millimetres.
I must say that I have worked with several pedantic fools who never seemed to get the job done with any degree of quality or promptitude, They were a real pain. Don't be one of them by trying to misconstrue the accepted industry shorthands.

It works when it's 1mm Allan.
Just keep them on the small jobs.
May I just add,why is wire round when it's measured in square mm?

It was once measured in "circular mils" QC. Google it. Just another useless subject that I had to learn…… then never use in practice.

That would be fun, how is that one abbriviated in type?
There are a few things they stopped teaching in the last few decades, common sense being the most notable.

We didn't have typewriters or word processors when that was in vogue and abbreviation was frowned upon.

Wow Allan,

How this forum has degenerated in recent times.
Good to know that at least you used the plural so I gain solace in knowing that I am not the only Pedantic Idiot, or was that Plain Idiot, or maybe it was Pedantic Fool. Not sure now but at least I am not the only one.
Thanks for pointing out that it is all quite clear and easy to understand anyway.
So we have:
1. mm squared - which is typed incorrectly but we all should know clearly what that means (tick).
2. B&S - Now was that British Stand or Brown & Sharpe. No real clarity on if they are the same or which one B&S stands for here in Australia (tick)
3. AWG - which I am lead to believe, if it stands for American Wire Gauge will have a larger number for smaller wire and a smaller number for larger wire. That number has no relevance to modern manufacturing processes apparently and would only mean something once one found a chart to ascertain the actual thickness. If you find two charts with conflicting data then you are none the wiser (tick).
If it stands for Australian Wire Gauge then it might represent the outside measurement of the insulation and may or may not have much or any copper in it at all (tick).
4. Something that looks like 7/0.20 or similar. We used that in the security industry back when I was an installer so suspect the industry still does (tick).
I am really pleased that your electrician mate and his TAs know what 6 mil means cause I doubt many outside that tight industry circle would.
At least now, when I next go to buy some cable, I will have a very clear understanding as to what I am looking for. I might even be able to throw off my label (what was it again) as I demonstrate my newly acquired understanding and prowess.

Meanwhile regards
Pedantic Idiot.

Glad to see you followed that perfectly.
Australian wire gauge? As far as I knew there is only 3 sizes, thick, or thin fencing wire, and coat-hanger
And next time you go for wire just get 4×0 and call it whatever you want, bet you can't make it smoke.

.
Alright, I'll throw a couple of other favourites into the ring and see if there are any other old sparkies reading.
What was 23/0076 or 40/0076? Most of you would have handled them even though you were unaware.
I have a cigar ready for a correct answer.

It must be a wet day everywhere today. This forum is unusually active.

OK I'll have a guess,
I'm not tour kind of sparky,
And I'm not old ( as you anyway lol)
And, I don't like cigars anyway.
My guess, speaker wire?

That was with no google assistance.

On a more serious note, I have never used that sizing method as my previous guess might have proved but it has one major advantage I can see.
It would give you an idea as to its flexability which is an important factor.

.
Nup, not speaker wire.
And I didn't think of someone using Google so I'll giver the answer before they do.
They were the two common flexible cable sizes representing 5A and 10A appliance flex.

23 or 40 strands of 0.0076 inch diameter strands.
Represented today by 0.75mmsq and 1.5mmsq approx.

Ahhh, that would be the stuff with a slightly raised edge on one side.

Ah Happy, I can be pedantic too when I need to, but I try not to do so just to badger someone else.

Hi QC, err, no. not the ribbed stuff.
Just common old appliance cords.

Bugga, wrong again.
Good thing I don't smoke, never gunna get that cigar.

Allan 23/0076 was rated at 7.5 amps and 40/0076 rated at 10 amps ref 1969 saa rule book

Right.

Quite correct but at no stage did he mention that it was recomended by the manufacturer and Redarc is probably the only inverter on the market that you can identify the manufacturer, could be wrong on that, has anyone with a rebranded one able to varify that?

Did the specs you found mention current and minimum voltages required by the unit and maybe the attack time of the over current protection or duration of the surge capacity, with these figures the cable requirements can be calculated.
Then ofcourse you have to trust in the cable manufacturers specs, do you use a generic chart that specifies 0000 as 120mm2 or one by a manufacturer such as Tycab at a bee's dick short of 100mm2.
This also depends on the purity of the copper so the restance/ length also needs to be specified.

With this information Redarcs recomendation can be checked, wouldn't be the first time an error went through un noticed.

Just as a matter of interest, what cable is mentioned by Kings, Hardkorr, itech world or any of the other rebranded inverters specify?

If I was marketing inverters I would not specify cable size, just their requirements and let the installer do the maths based on the products they use.

Wasn't aware anyone was arguing, just putting forward varying "facts" found on the Web that are in conflict and confirming the fact that the inexperienced must be very careful on what information gathered in this medium they concieve as true.
It's human nature to believe what you read, it is how we were taught to educate ourselves, so someone that has no personal experience is more likley to believe what has been written by someone with little or no more experience than they have and ignore advice from people that have trained under experience tradesmen and had technical training and in many cases decades of personal experience.
Not arguing, discussing.

Argument:
'a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory.'

I was using the word argument in the above context.

Paul

Now your arguing about my response to your post.
I'm quite happy to call it a discussion, you can call it whatever you like.
If you want to argue I would recomend you start your own thread and argue about what what defines an arguement with whoever actually cares.

.
The word "argument" is well defined in any good dictionary. It is essentially a word to define the putting forward a reason(s) to support a conclusion and is not necessarily antagonistic. It can be qualified by such as 'reasoned argument' 'heated argument' 'futile argument' etc..

It is often used incorrectly where the proper word would be "quarrel".

There is no doubt that this thread is enacting an argument. Hopefully it will not become a quarrel.

Feel free to discuss it with ups and downs in a thread he/she is about to start.

.
Enerdrive nominate a 350A fuse QC.

Isn't it raining everywhere?

Strange.
They must have a very low tolerance to voltage drop.
Tycabs 0000 is close to 100mm2 and rated to carry almost 400 amps.
Yet 120mm2 cable fused at 350 amps.
Still don't know what 120mm2 cable would be rated to carry but one could assume 20% more than 100mm2.
120 seems very over rated for a 1.5 metre run.
I guess it's allowing for the low quality and or incorrectly sized cable out there.

Qldcamper, the size fuse Redarc recommends is a Mega 450 amp.

Do they specify a cable length Tony?

.
No, their specs are reasonable generous as follows……..
Operating range: 10.5v to 15.5v
Under voltage alarm: Adjustable 11.0v to 12.1v
Under voltage shutdown: Adjustable 10.5v to 11.8v
Make what you will of it.

Perhaps the 120mm2 cable recommendation is just to obtain a minimal volt drop and ensure best possible performance. I don't care to ask them.

What is known in the mining industry as ACE.

Some sort of … Covering Exercise?

Yes, cable length of 0 - 2m

You got that right Allan.
Tony, least their fuse size is close to the cable capacity assuming true 120mm2 is rated at close to 500 amps.

Now it's getting confusing.

OK found it on the Tycab site, it is weldflex and on the chart I found it on it has no reference to a B&S size or rated current capacity.
It may fit the same terminals as 0000 as weldflex has more strands of a smaller diameter than battery cable so less air space between strands so smaller overall diameter of a battery cable with the same surface area. Weldflex has always had a higher throughput than a similar thickness battery cable and is much easier to work with but its insulation is nowhere near as tough as battery cable.

There is however a ebay seller calling it 0000 but so far have not seen it on the Tycab site.