Caravan Chaos

" ACA...should be some top notch journalism in that link then "

Yes - with the right editing, a television station can make eating fresh fruit and vegetables look very very dangerous !

Happy and safe travels

Gazz

Ps - I have never owned a caravan nor have I driven with one on tow

Unfortunately it has happened before many times and will happen again ...simply because the occupants have no legal title to the land , they pay essentially to rent the land but own the dwellings.

The laws need to be changed to provide better protection for those involved.

Wrong part there Tim - we are looking at vans being towed not vans being evicted from parks when the park is sold.

The owners know the risks - sorry, I feel sorry for them as individuals but not for them in a legal sense. It is a risk of living on the cheap.

Sorry you are correct

Not only should there be training to get a towing licence in the first place, there should be regular knowledge testing for ALL licences, not just automatic renewal after X years and payment of a fee.

People get the wrong interpretation of a rule and its never picked up because they are never challenged with a follow-up knowledge test.

Classic example, the right of way rule at roundabouts. It's NOT give way to the right, it's give way to traffic that is already in the roundabout. That means you might have slow down and to give way to traffic entering on your left because they are or will be in the roundabout before you. Barging through because you're on their right is wrong, but is the norm. God help you if you try to drive by the correct rule.

And here I was thinking that the rule for roundabouts was to get through them as fast as possible. ;=)) or at least that how a lot of people use them.

There at least 20yrs or more behind teaching people how to use roundabouts. It would have been easy to sort out when you renewed your licence they spent 5-10minutes showing you how to correctly use one on a computer screen then got you to demonstrate you understand quick and simple well for some.

If they have already entered on your left, and entered before you, in what sense would you give way to them if you are on their right?

"If they have already entered on your left, and entered before you, in what sense would you give way to them if you are on their right?"

Unlike 99.9% of people, I would slow down and let them take their right of way without risk of collision.

Vehicle A and vehicle B are approaching a roundabout. There is risk of collision, so someone must give way.

Vehicle A is on Vehicle B's left and at current speeds A will enter the roundabout before Vehicle B. Currently, 99.9% of drivers in Vehicle B in this situation wrongly assume that because they are on A's right that they have right of way.

They enter the roundabout at such a speed that if A took the right of way to which he is entitled, there would be a collision. So 99.9% of the time, A gives way to B in the interests of survival, thus reinforcing the incorrect interpretation.

Only this morning I was behind a driver (driver A) who was number one at a roundabout. Driver B, on A's right, was 50 metres away from the roundabout, proceeding at a safe speed. There was no risk of collision but A waited for B instead of taking right of way. B was behaving properly, but A demonstrated the 99.9% misinterpretation that the applicable rule is "give way to the right".

Dead right!, heaps of "Licensed" drivers of all sorts of vehicles shouldn't be on the road. No matter how much training or regulation you put in place. Common sense, Respect and consideration for other users is the key.

There is a group of truck drivers from other lands who have not been required to take the same track to get behind the wheel as a driver who grew up here.
This issue appears in the current affairs every now and then.

That reminds me of a quote:
"A man who thinks that education can solve the problems of life and of
living is a man who's confessing he's never understood the problem..."
(Dr. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones)

Education may go part way, but it won't ultimately solve all of the problems - there are many people who *knowingly* and routinely disregard the road rules.

tim_c, that reminds me of one of my quotes, sorry I can't put Dr. in front of my mind.

When addressing a problem it is best to offer a solution or part there of, than just post and offer nothing.

You might be amazed at the amount of caravanners that I have just spoken to respectfully at servos. First thing they normally say is. We didn't know that and thanks for the heads up.

So now you have identified another part of the problem with some ignoring the rules, what is your solution to that.

Perhaps some enforcement of the road rules we already have before we start talking about introducing more rules (eg. special class of licensing for caravanners - which probably also won't be enforced).

The NSW Government has a "safety" campaign: "Driving Towards Zero" (meaning, targeting zero road deaths), yet they still continue to be largely ineffective in preventing hand-held mobile phone use (for example) - even if you think that isn't really that dangerous (or illegal parking, fog light usage, etc.), by continually permitting people to knowingly and routinely disobey the road rules, the authorities are actually encouraging a view that the road rules aren't really there for our safety, but can be broken habitually without consequence.

The authorities still permit people to drive even when they show a continual disregard for the road rules (eg. habitual speeders - they just slap down a few speedbumps to ruin the drive for the rest of us). All you have to say is "I need my licence for my job" and you can have your licence back. I'd say "If your licence was so important to you, you should have been more careful with it - other people need their lives for their jobs."

The authorities still permit people to drive even when they apparently can't control a car (crashing into bulidings, trees and other objects, running off the road - every weekend and every time it rains there are signs, streetlights and traffic lights knocked down by people who apparently can't control a motorised vehicle).

Such "drivers" pose a far bigger threat to public safety than the occasional caravanner.

So how are you going to rectify this. Solutions please.

I thought I did give solutions - ah yes, there it is in the first line of my previous reply "Perhaps some enforcement of the road rules we already have..."

The authorities should also do their job and remove people from our roads that demonstrate:
a) a continual disregard for (or misunderstanding of) the road rules
b) inability to operate a motorised vehicle safely in public places.

There should actually be penalties for being "at fault" in a collision (currently, "accidents" are treated my many as "just a part of driving" - if road accidents were viewed as seriously as other workplace accidents (remembering that the roads are the workplace for many in our community), we might start to see a reduction in road trauma).

There you go, there are a few suggestions, and more specific than just saying "people need to be educated". That's nice. Educated about what? And how? Reading a book may teach you what you need to know to ride a bicycle, but reading all the theory in the world won't make you suddenly able to ride a bicycle, or tow a large caravan for that matter. Over to you...

dunno what speed restriction are for those hill but greenmount east of perth has 40kmph for 22.5 GCM and above.

There is no way I would do 80 down greenmount with folks caravan behind prado -or their cruiser.

nor is there any signage to say caravans or ANY towing vehicle must have a maximum speed or 40 either.

Until a enforced signage with a maximum speed limit imposed the roll overs and jack knifes shall continue

and I said it before and say it again, ANYBODY who tows a trailer of any description, needs to have a special endorsement on drivers licence. Just a pity its not "mandated by transport authorities"

it occurred for recreational boast now its considered fact of life needing a recreation skippers ticket to operate a boat, why it can't happen for trailer I'm buggered to know

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It's not steep Dean, just a gentle grade, and 110kph speed limit.

Make that 80KPH Alan.
have lived at the top of Greenmount for nearly 40 years and have yet to see a caravan rollover down the hill. That's not to say there haven't been any, but have not heard of or seen same.

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Er Dingo,

No, I haven't seen any rollovers at "Greenmount" either.
Think you may be confused.
The Bruce Highway is in Queensland and you appear to be in W.A.

Re-read the posts - the first is about Qld but from Dean's followup (the second one) "dunno what speed restriction are for those hill but greenmount east of perth has 40kmph for 22.5 GCM and above" is about WA.

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Thank you for that William but who are you addressing? It helps to put it in the first line.

Dingo's Followup 885661 began.... "Make that 80KPH Alan.

You - you started talking about Qld but all the other posts are about WA - you were hijacked.

However I do not see what a Deans post on a hill in WA has anything to do with your hill in QLD - the joy of forums.

Exactly it's a common thing and to put something else in perspective I have a 1993 GQ patrol tare weight approx. 2 t and towing capacity 2.5t a quarter more than the vehicles weighs empty that to me says they were doing things safely back then and if you had a brake failure you had a good chance of controlling your set up also it's chassis is a lot stronger than most other makes on the road today.

So lets take the ever popular BT50 tare weight is around 1,900kg to 2,050kg approx but it's towing capacity is a staggering 3.5t that's three quarters more than the vehicles weighs. So when did car manufactures decide it was safe for the average joe to tow such heavy loads with such light vehicles. Sales probably has a lot to do with it because obviously by what we see happening on the roads some people relying on having ABS, stability control and all the other safety devices in the vehicle does not help because who has actually been taught how to use any of these devices correctly. If I was relying on these devices to compensate for any of it's or my shortcomings then I would only be lying to myself about how safe the set up really is. But it's not going to change soon it will only get worse.

"So lets take the ever popular BT50 tare weight is around 1,900kg to 2,050kg approx but it's towing capacity is a staggering 3.5t that's three quarters more than the vehicles weighs. So when did car manufactures decide it was safe for the average joe to tow such heavy loads with such light vehicles"


I can't recall any of them saying it was either safe or unsafe. It all depends on what you are towing and where you are towing it. There is an endless number of trailers of all types in industry, agriculture etc that could weigh 3500 kg but don't have the length, height or ball weight of a 3500 kg caravan. The car only has to safely and reliably tow one of them somewhere and it has met its manufactures claims. No manufacture claims their product will tow anything that happens to weigh the maximum anywhere in any conditions.

If they tried and provided towing and loading instructions, the handbook would be the size of a small phone book.

This is where driver trailing comes into it. A good course should cover not only driving but vital points like correctly matching the van to the car and loading both correctly.

You might be onto something they may not be saying it's safe but I haven't seen every add or read every pamphlet put out for every vehicle on the market so I don't know if they haven't made that claim or not. But you don't claim it can tow up to x amount then back pedal when someone says I want to tow that or near it. That is probably why they use to leave a bigger safety margin because they know people are going to go beyond the max so they were protecting people from themselves also with some quotes like this then I'm confused as to what they are saying these are related to loading and towing

Extreme power combined with it's rigid ladder frame chassis and a towing capacity of up to 3.5 t

Load it up

Don't be afraid to give it heaps

Tow up to an impressive 3.5 t

Sway control helps to keep you in control of you load.

I may be wrong but it seams like their encouraging us to carry or tow as much as we can and it would have to be safe if they claim you can tow that much or load you vehicle up to it's max. But my original point was why have the manufactures raised the towing capacities of a vehicle so high compared to it's own tare weight because I'm pretty sure quite a lot of drivers haven't had their intelligence levels raised they just go along with what the salesman tells them.

Also the GVM's have been increased significantly in some vehicles to the point the suspension can't cope safely with the load but that's probably another story.

Sounds like a "training provider" over in WA they been issuing out dodgy HC licences to a small ethnic group they also have 2 drivers in cab and one instructor.

about 150 and counting licences have been suspended due to rorting the system. As they say out of a weetie box

When i went for the old B class it was still dog box and reckon I only got 3 good clean gear changes, never been good at double clutching. I never actually went for test, had a rather scary situation occur so felt better off waiting never got back into it on time.

I would strongly support that anybody, who is going for a higher grade licence MUST know the road rules if they don't understand them when driving a C class (car match box) then how they go in larger vehicle no idea.

The verbal test was easy as still remember most of the questions and answers.

Knowledge of the technicalities is biggest key some loads need a sign other need s amber light some road train other long vehicle list goes on.

Biggest one being log books not used in WA & NT but are soon as you cross the line in sand to SA where do you start counting hours driven from border or from when you left depot in WA ?

That sounds pretty dodgy on their behalf Baz . When I got my HR in the early 90's I had work mates who were a great help I was based in Newcastle done lots of work up the hunter valley through Sydney to Woolongong and out west I suppose I was lucky because you get different things happening quite often especially driving through Sydney. I think I had my learners for 3 months the work mates said I was well and truly ready but that I should still go through a driving school to make sure I didn't pick up to many of their bad habbits. I had 3 or 4 lessons then got my licence but the day of the test it was pouring down and I was driving an empty truck with air brakes all worked out ok.

Got my semi licence about 6yrs later had about 8 lessons I think it was a 38 foot trailer not like some trainers who have those baby ones about half size which should not be allowed. First lesson into the heart of Newcastle and down Darby st which was the coffee strip the instructor liked to see what sort of person he was teaching, even though he was a mate of my uncles he was very thorough.

Sounds to me like you needs a bit of that there edukation their talking about Noggins.
Dave.

Noggins

Go for a drive on the Pacific hwy and you will soon see the small 4x4 and the massive overloaded van , car combo .
Not everyone but enough to make you think .
Trying to deflect the issue on to the classic overloaded Patrol or whatever doesn't help the issue .


Cheers

But I do agree that all Patrols drivers should have a special licence :-)

You might want to check again, there are quite a few 4000kg ATM vans available. The market is big enough for Lovell's to offer a 4000kg tow kit upgrade for LC200.

Great .
I will look forward to see a standard twincab towing a 4000kg van .
Some Johnnie will give it a go , no doubt .

Cheers

Well with some of the vans they tow now with a tare weight of 3 t plus it's more than likely it's been done and there's currently several out there now. It doesn't take much to make up the weight if you think you need to take everything with you on your lap around Aus

Easy as to 'hit' 4 ton or more even in a 18ft van , yep the 'standard' van might be 2.5 or so then add the extras , that extra water tank , that aircon , that generator , that solar system , that tv and arial , that extra 'spare wheel , the jerry cans , Then fill it all up , then add the foods , [ beer ] , clothes , bedding , [ beer ] , fishing gear , boat + motor , [ beer ] , fuel for boat , did I mention beer ? And wine for the wife , the outdoor chairs and table , the BBQ , [ beer ] , Now your 2.5ton van is easy as over 4 ton without mentioning the dog food for the fur babies that take up room in the tow vehicle ....

3ways - Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 19:44
You might want to check again, there are quite a few 4000kg ATM vans available. The market is big enough for Lovell's to offer a 4000kg tow kit upgrade for LC200.


I wonder if the kit includes an extra meter or preferably more in the wheelbase in order to give it at least some chance of being able to control a van that size. The engine is big enough to pull it but that is about all the car has going for it with a 4000kg van behind it.

Agreed, Notso.

And add to that "attitude". How about we add to the curriculum a bit of co-operation, a bit of thought for other road users. Not necessarily rules-based, but just a bit of common sense and politeness. It might be called "roadcraft".

I agree 100%, the technical side is ignored in almost all purchases of van and or vehicle combination. Michael

Shaker,
What's wrong with electro-magnetic drum brakes.
If they are maintained and serviced they work pretty good, they must as I would say 98% of vans have them fitted.

Cheers

Good point Shaker yes the old drum brakes are getting a bit long in the tooth the brake pads had a lot more surface area than discs but were not as effective at stopping hence the reason discs became popular well for some anyway. I wonder why their still widely used by lots of manufactures on modern vehicles, vans or trailers.

They use to take a bit to dry out when you done creek crossings before you got the full pedal back especially when you had drums on all corners. The were higher maintenance than discs more prone to seizing up or even limiting their movement if mud built up inside the drum over time. The drums themselves would wear out faster and become very scored or grooved from dust if you spent a reasonable amount of time off road. Maybe they have improved and can compete with discs these days with stopping ability and less maintenance requirements but if not that's a bit of a backwards step.

Blue M, drum brakes fade under long braking conditions, they lock up when they get wet, the only reason van manufacturers use them is that they are cheap, the electric drum brakes are little more than a magnetic hand brake with a single leading shoe. Vehicles had 2 leading shoe drum brakes 50 years ago.
BTW, does you’re vehicle have drum brakes?

We have a new vehicle with drum brakes.

Me too. Nothing wrong with them. Had disk brakes on boat trailers and a campomatic, stone damage drove us mad. The 12" drums on our current trailer are perfect for it - as are the drums on the rear of the ranger that drag it.

Shaker said.
"they build build their vans with poorly thought out suspension, "


Very true, particularly those antique independent trailing arm suspensions. Have you ever seen that design used on a car? It is cheap, easy to build and looks good but that is all it has going for it.

When you pivot the arms on bushes that are placed in a straight line across the chassis and the van leans over in corners or during sudden evasive action, the wheels lean over with it. That not only reduces tyre contact with the road but the van is leaning from ground level.

Vans with beam axles and leaf springs lean from a point around the shackles so the tyres maintain close to full contact and there is less leverage trying to tip the whole thing over.

Shaker, I do have discs in all corners on this Ute, first time I have ever owned a car with four discs.
Honestly, I hadn't really noticed any difference in the stopping from my last one that didn't.
I also have a pet hate with ABS brakes and dirt roads.
Cheers