Carrying Genny inside Vehicle

I agree Old Baz ,We carry ours in the back of our cruiser with the vent closed and never a whiff in 3 years john y

Good on ya john, according to the post below we know nuttin', but
you & I will still be happy doin' what we do, wont we ?...:)))).
cheers....oldbaz

This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Personal Attacks Rule .

Forum Moderation Team

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but the fact that you felt
it necessary to attack me personally over my opinion does nothing for your credibility. If you cant disagree without such references I am
happy to concede that you are indeed the superior being when it comes to crap.....cheers......oldbaz.

we have done the same, it is fine to carry it inside, my guess is you wont be doing any "extreme" 4x4ing so it wont leak and I would not go to extreme's in sealing it up, better to just throw a light cover over it and most of all just tie it down, DONT leave it loose, that of course makes it impossible to completely wrap it but that is not wise anyway, it could leak heaps of fuel and you wont know until the bag splits and you have big trouble, leave it all open and the slightest leak you will smell way before it is dangerous and you can fix it and if you don't have an a/c then you are one of the crazy few left so ya genny wont get hot and no doubt you will not leave it in the full sun anyway ......
Go for it, you are sitting right on top of 80L anyway, not rocket science :-)
Cheers
Joe

Hey Olbaz, it is like a line I saw the other day, it said;

"Those that reckon it can't be done should not bother those that are doing it."

I reckon inside is fine also so long as the simple precautions are done.

But then, each to his own ideas.

Cheers, Bruce.

Just a point , they DO NOT all smell!. I have done many trips with my Honda E350 ( 2 stroke ) genny in the Pajero and Subaru,( Simpson included) .
I shut the fuel off, and run it till it stops, then close the tank vent. and have never had the slightest petrol smell.
Cheers Des.

I personally don't do it, with the twin cab it isn't an issue. But I do have a few friends who must be doing something wrong because they complain about it quite regularly. The are using the Honda eu2000i.

As DesF says, run the fuel out or any remaining furl in the carby can vaporize and vent back out through the carby and aircleaner into the surrounding area.
This is where most smells are coming from. Also some of these motors have a fuel overflow pipe coming from the carby and that can be another source of fumes.

Draining the carby will solve most of the problems in my experience.

Cheers, Bruce.

Yep Bungarra totally agree,
I have a 2.4 KVA genset, its weatherproof enclosure and 2 x 20 litre Jerry cans on the rear bumper of my caravan. About 90 kilos all up on the back of a 3 tonne van. It’s not a matter of “you can’t do this or that” but the speed you travel, how big your tow vehicle is in comparison to the van, how the whole setup is balanced etc.

Hi Bantam you need to check your facts.

Your quote
“As far as mounting a generator on the rear bumper.....well it is explicitly illegal to carry petrol in any type of container on the rear of a vehicle”

It is legal to carry petrol on the rear of a caravan – I have checked this with both the WA Police and the WA Mines Department.

YOU check your facts, go to the federal dangerous goods legeslation and you will find that it is explicity illegal to carry flamable goods ( petrol is in that catagory) on the rear of a vehicle.
OR for that matter unprotected outside the vehicle body line.

The draw bar provides protection from impact.

this matter has been discussed not long ago on this forum with chapeter and verse quoted.


It is however permissable to carry diesel on the rear of a vehicle because it is a different catagory ( combustable).

All too often the police and other departments do not know the detail of every bit of legeslation on the books.

I am however surprised about the poor advice on this occasion.

cheers

Hi Bantam – I will take our authorities’ interpretation of the law above yours.

Instead of making vague references to undefined legislation - why not quote extracts from their text and list their titles so that they can be checked?

It is legal, in WA, to carry petrol on the rear of a caravan or 4WD – I have checked this with both the WA Police and the WA Mines Department, see also the extract from the WA Dangerous Goods Act below.

I have included extracts from a few states legislation – these were sent to me in 2012 – they are unchecked by me but they are have more detail than you are quoting.

I have personally checked the WA one, with the relevant authorities, for an opinion.

WESTERN AUSTRALIA
The WA Dangerous Goods Act 1988, and Dangerous Goods (Transport) (Road and Rail) Regulations
1999, contains the relevant regulations, both of which are based on the Australian Dangerous
Goods Code (ADGC), sixth edition.

The maximum permissible quantity is 250 litres of petrol, which should be carried in approved
containers in either the boot or on external brackets. It can be carried within the passenger
compartment, such as the back of a station wagon, in approved, properly restrained containers,
but this is not recommended.
Contact the Explosives and Dangerous Goods Division of the WA Department of Mineral and
Petroleum Resources (Department of Mines) for further into (08 9222 333)

QUEENSLAND
The Transport Operations (Road Use Management - Dangerous Goods) Regulation 1998 permits
carrying up to 250 litres of dangerous goods (fuel) for personal use. The responsibility for
filling a jerry can and ensuring it is an approved container lies with the person filling the
container.

Under the Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995 owners are prohibited from
modifying their vehicle, its parts or equipment, and from carrying dangerous goods
(irrespective of quantity or position), in an unsafe manner.

This includes carrying containers upright, ensuring they don't leak and are properly secured,
and do not overload the vehicle (especially if transported on roof-racks). A booklet titled Load
Restraint Guide (available from Commonwealth Government Bookshops) should be consulted
Write to: Greg Swann, Group Manager, Vehicle Safety and Industry Reform Section,
Queensland Transport, PO Box 673 Fortitude Valley QLD 4006.

SOUTH AUSTRALIA
In South Australia, petrol is covered by the Dangerous Substances Act and Regulations, which are
in turn based on the ADGC; therefore, the same 250- limit applies.

Diesel is unregulated, as elsewhere, but the Department for Administrative and Information
Services advises that petrol (and diesel) transportation would be covered by the general duty of
care provisions contained in Sections 11 and 12 of the Dangerous Substances Act.

The Road Traffic Act has provisions for duly of care relating to vehicle safety issues such as
overhanging loads and impact protection. They also state that, while carrying fuel in the
driver's vapour space (in a van or wagon), is much debated, it is up to each individual driver
to assess their own risk and duty of care provisions when deciding whether to fit a range tank
or carry fuel in jerry cans. Dangerous Substances Branch, Workplace Services (08) 8303 0447

VICTORIA
In Victoria, the relevant legislation is the Road Act 1995, which has been adopted from
the, (Dangerous Goods) Act -1995 and the Road Transport (Dangerous Goods) Regulations.

The Regulations reference the ADGC under which Regulation 1.10 exempts small quantities of fuel
from the rigours of the Dangerous Goods legislation. This refers, again, to petrol only. Diesel
is not considered dangerous goods.

They maintain it is the responsibility of the driver items, regardless of type, are firmly and
a fuel should be stored in AS2906 containers minimum requirement.
Write to: Victorian WorkCover Authority, Dangerous Goods Unit
GPO Box 4306 Melbourne Vic 3001

NEW SOUTH WALES
The NSW Environment Protection Authority (EPA) and WorkCover NSW are the competent authorities
for dangerous goods control in NSW. They' administer the Road and Rail Transport (Dangerous
Goods) Act 1997 and the Road Transport Reform (Dangerous Goods) (NSW) Regulations 1998.

Under these laws, jerry cans must be approved containers for the transport of Class 3 liquids
(petrol) (ie, AS2906) and the maximum permissible quantity is 250 litres. Diesel is not
considered a dangerous good, but a combustible, and must be carried in a safe manner.

Division 9.3.1 (1) (e) of the ADGC states that 'if the package (ie, jerry can) contains
dangerous goods of a kind that may lead to the formation of flammable, toxic or other harmful
atmospheres - the package must be stowed so that no harmful atmosphere will accumulate in the
cabin If the package leaks'.


NORTHERN TERRITORY.
Only containers which comply with Northern Territory Dangerous Goods Regulation 217 can be used
to transport flammable, (petrol.) and combustible (diesel) fuels. Essentially, this covers
containers complying with AS1533/34 and AS1 940, but 'approved container' is also specified
which indicates that containers complying with AS2906 would also be acceptable.

The Northern Territory Dangerous Goods legislation is b ADGC, which specifies that not more
than 250 litres of petrol can be carried. No quantity is specified for diesel.

Information bulletins are available at www.nt.gov.au/cbb/wha or contact
The Department of Industries and Business, Work Health (08) 8999 511 8

AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY
The transport of fuel is covered under the Dangerous Goods Act. 1975, Dangerous, Goods
Regulations 1978, Road Transport Reform (Dangerous Goods) Act 1995 and Road Transport
(Dangerous Goods) Regulations. The latter takes its requirements from the ADGC.

The DGA (1975) Section, 12 and 14 require fuel to be carried in appropriate, containers
to prevent spillage or leakage, and make it an offence to carry fuel in a manner likely to
cause death/injury, or damage to property.

Section 37(1) of the RTR (DIG) Act1 1995 requires fuel be transported in a safe manner.
Sub Section (2) makes it an offence to do so where a person "ought to have known" that what
they were doing was unsafe or likely to cause damage to persons or property.
Contact: ACT WorkCover (Dangerous Goods) (02) 6207 6354.

I thaught for a minute that you may have done some research...but ya havn't, you have just quoted verbatum from an archive thread....and that was a quote from a thread on another forum

And you have failed to take an any of the arguments of that thread.

It must be understood that these days it is rare for a single piece of legeslation to provide an explicit and comprehensive answer.

I hope not to have to take your hand a lead you step by step thru the legesaltion...I realy don't have the time.

the critical phrase is in the ADGC

so we come to the Australian dangerous goods code 2011

Chapter 4 section 2 subsection 1 paragraph 2

During transport, portable tanks must be adequately protected against damage to the shell and service equipment resulting from lateral and longitudinal impact and overturning. If the shell and service equipment are so constructed as to withstand impact or overturning it need not be protected in this way. Examples of such protection are given in 6.7.2.17.5.


and for good measure
paragraph 5

Empty portable tanks not cleaned and not gas-free must comply with the same requirements as portable tanks filled with the previous substance

It is plain and simple that a jerry can ( portable tank) mounted in the rear of a vehicle is not protected from impact.

In fact common sence ( a rare item it seems) indicates that it is a bad idea to carry a quantitry of highly flamable liquid in an exposed position on the rear of a vehicle.
Given that rear end impacts to vehicles are very common

On a rereading oc the ADGC paragrahp quoted it brings into question many places people carry bothe petrol tanks and gass bottles.

cheers

Obviously they don’t apply to jerry cans fitted to the rear of a 4WD or caravan in WA (given the two relevant authorities opinions) and I would doubt that they apply in other states too - seeing that their legislation is worded in a similar manner.
None of them specifically disallow mounting of fuel containers on the rear of vehicles – I suspect your interpretation or application of the rules you quote is wrong.
As a side issue – I have twice done the big loop through all states of Australia with two red Jerry cans on the rear – never had an issue with police.

The ADGC specifically defines a portable tank as follows:
"Portable tank means a multimodal tank that:
(a) is designed primarily to be loaded onto a vehicle or ship; and
(b) has a capacity of more than 450 L; and
(c) is equipped with skids, mountings, stabilizers and accessories to facilitate manual handling; and
(d) is capable of being loaded and unloaded without removing its service or structural equipment; and
(e) is capable of being lifted when full;"

Very clearly, a jerry can is not a portable tank and therefore the sections of the code quoted by The Bantam are not applicable to use of jerry cans.

I can find nothing in the ADGC that restricts where and how jerry cans can be carried on a private vehicle.

Sorry lost interest.

If you want to argue the whole thing go ahead.

This is an issue that was discussed at length on foum after form, with endless wingeing and people with absolutly no will to find the truth.

If you have an opinion was it in writing and from a government department that actually has durisdiction on the matter.

My understanding is that it remains illegal to carry petrol or gas bottles on the rear (or side or frront for that matter) unprotecteced against impact.

The reason why are plain and clear for anybody with a jot of sence.

Go on arguing if you like...but ya just shouting into the wind without a written advice from a government officer with the appropriate dursidiction in each state.

cheers

The weight issue at the rear only becomes an issue if it changes the tow ball weight enough to make it too low. For most caravans/trailers I doubt the gennie weare talking about will make an issue but then if the tow ball weight is a bit light on it may.

Garry

Weight on the rear is much more serious than making some minor change to ball weight. Weight to the rear of the van axle contributes to the Double Pendulum effect and uncontrollable sway by the van.

It’s the setup of the whole rig that’s important – the following also add to the pendulum effect.
Extra weight in the front of a van (independent of correct ball weight).
Incorrectly set up, or the absence of, load distribution bars.
An incorrect ball weight.
The shorter the length and lighter the weight of the tow vehicle - adds to the pendulum effect.
Speed is a vital factor - Collyn Rivers quote “Having researched this issue in depth for the past 10 or more years I would not personally tow any conventional caravan longer than five metres at over 90 km/h”
I tow a 7 metre van with 90 kilo on its rear bumper at 90ks and hour (less on bad roads), with a long wheel base 4WD.
I consider it stable compared to a lot of other “wobblies” I’ve encountered with nothing mounted on their rear bars.

Thanks for some facts Honky. Always useful in a discussion.
Wrt to detection by smell, it is of course the level at which it becomes apparent and does not necessarily indicate the actual level present. Which only needs to be 6 x more for detonation.
Hmmm..... the question is, is it worth the risk? Bit like carrying gas!
Cheers
Andrew

I think its a bit more than 6 times.
i am sure someone can convert the 250 PPB against the 1400 PPM.
My maths is not that good

Honky

Hi Honky.
I'm no maths wizard but in my opinion:
1400 ppm = 1400,000 ppb.
Therefore 250 ppb is about 6000 times the difference – not 6

Oops! Didn't see m vs b :-(

for ignition, you mean ignition for explosion.

Think about this.
Fuel systems leak..its a pretty common occurance...the smell of fumes is realy a side show.

Now consider this generator or other fuel container is in some sort of draw system or a pack of gear.

While the area may not be sealed, the fumes my be retained and concentrated and those smelled in the open cab may be at a very much lower concentration.

consider that pack of equipment may contain sources of ignition, such as the the fridge or any relays, switches or electronics mounted there.

Forget the smell, consider the clearly identified issues.

cheers

To the 1 plus million motor mower users around Australia.

How on earth do you get your fuel from the servo to home.

My bet is 999000 of us fill the fuel can at the servo, and then place it in the boot for the ride home. Love the smell of fresh unleaded in the car as it swirls around the tail light bulbs.

Carrying the motor mower over to the motherinlaws or bringing some petrol back from the service station is a whole other thing than, housing a generator and/or fuel in the vehicle day after day.

Mostly the trips with mower or fuel on board are quite short and direct.
This makes the risk period quite short.
AND it is quite practical to do things like leave the windows open.

In a Caravanning, camping or touring 4wd situation Or day to day business vehicles.
The risk is multiplied by time.
The quantities of fuel are generally greater.
Travel on the highway and over rough roads is a near certaintly.
Leaving the vehicle shut up and parked in the sun is likewise a near certanty.

There are lots of things that where done in the past and where never a good idea.


Back in the 80's I would pick up to the local gas depot and carry a cylinder of oxygen or accetelene away in the boot of the Cortina.

These days if you turn up to a either BOC or Air Liquide, they wont let you out the gate unless the gas bottles are properly secured, upright and carried in an adequately ventilated position and adequately protected from impact..

Over the top may be, but there have been a string of flamable goods accidents in recent times..some of the more spactacular ones reported in the media.

cheers

Now there are different times when you can carry fuel.

So what you are talking about is likelihood and risk.

I know I carry mower fuel in the back so it is good to hear it is ok by you to do that.

So I am not confused. How much fuel can I carry and for what distance until it is Bantam safe or unsafe.

Likeihood. Say as just as an example. 100,000 vehicles each week carrying both empty and full fuel drums in the car for lets say 2k to the servo and 2k back. That makes a total of 400,000k with vehicles carrying fuel each week. Haven't added all the commercial operators carrying fuel to this.

Bantam you seem to have two different rules.

Bye now

The concept of "safe" or " not safe" is very much an over simplification.

Risk is an infinitely variable thing.

and your fiddling with statistics is entirely unhelpfull.

The dangerous goods legeslation makes clear demarkations about what is permissable to carry without licences, plackards and the whole formal dangerous goods handling and transport thing.

Your insurer will definitely have "views" on what it considers an acceptable risk.

Yes indeed many vehicles carry both full and empty fuel containers every day....many of them with little or no consideration of the risks or legalities...this is why we still have spills, vehicles burning and exploding.
The rest have just been lucky

So are you feelin' lucky...well are you.

Out on the roads and in the workplace we have seen significant changes in the last few years.

We have seen much heavier enforcement and employer requirements on load restraint...this is why we frequently see cargo nets used on open utes and trailers these days.

Inspite of this heavy enforcement we still see poorly secured loads and stuff on the side of every highway and major road that has fallen from vehicles.

When there was a national news story about a plumbers van leveled to the chasis due to a gas explosion and an apprentice very lucky to survive.
Some people called it a "freak Accident", the industrial safety community, insurers and the gas industry called it a highly likley event and entirely due to non compliance with several risk elimination practices.
AND we started to see gas bottles handled much less fast I loose.

Industry and business are beginning to recognise the risks involved with (in particular) flamable goods for what they are...that is higher than many people want to believe.

But the Caravan, camping and 4wd community continue to willingly ignorant and continue with a variety of practices that simply would not be accepted in informed industry and business.

I do not claim that carrying a mower and a 5 litre fuel tin in the back of the family waggon is "safe"....for short distances the risk is relativly low.
It is far prefereable to carry the mower and the fuel in an open trailer or open utility...particularly if this was a day after day practice....this would reduce the various risks considerably AND is exactly what most mowing contractors do.

Risk and luck are opposite concepts.

I find it facinating that people will take the 8 145 060 to 1 chance of winning lotto and think they realy might win.
But on the other hand take risks with safety in the couple of thousand to one and think it wont happen to me.



SO...are you feelin' lucky...well are you.

cheers

Obviously none of you read the Pedantic Replies thread, what a ridiculous bunfight over a simple question!

Yes I believe it is plainly rediculous that people in the caravan, camping and 4wd community are so willfully ignorant and utterly wreckless with a variety of issues.

In particular 240V power, flamable liquids and explosive gasses.

Even worse they council others to adopt their ignorant and wreckless ways.

Perhaps if someone would have been a little more pedantic, several people would still be alive today, instead of being killed in or near caravans and camp sites due to these very issues.

YEH she'll be right mate.


SO are you feelin' lucky..well are you.

cheers

If they are wreckless they must be doing it right – otherwise they’d be wrecked :)

Dennis,
I like that one.

Shaker, you are correct in what you say. Nuff said as old mate could go on for weeks on what he is allowed to do, and what we are allowed to do.

----
The Bantam posted:
Yes I believe it is plainly rediculous that people in the caravan, camping and 4wd community are so willfully ignorant and utterly wreckless with a variety of issues.

In particular 240V power, flamable liquids and explosive gasses.

Even worse they council others to adopt their ignorant and wreckless ways.

Perhaps if someone would have been a little more pedantic, several people would still be alive today, instead of being killed in or near caravans and camp sites due to these very issues.

YEH she'll be right mate.

SO are you feelin' lucky..well are you.
----

Mate: have you considered psychiatric therapy?

It would be safe if it's never had fuel in it. I didn't see any mention of an approved plastic storage box which will not break down from the leaking petrol fumes and what sort of tape are we talking about approved tape that won't break down and let the fumes out and how can you possibly tell it's sealed correctly without some sort of detector. It's not safe and not worth the risk for the sake of skimping and not mounting it outside where it belongs. I would rather do it correctly instead of possibly nodding off and killing myself or others and NO it wouldn't be safe at all. Happy now.

Thanks for all your advice, just had a look at a gen box made by Tony Engineering and they make them for all brands of generators, I will have to mount it on the rear bumper, as I do not have room on the a frame, I have a mobile welder and fabricator coming to have a look this week to see the best way to fit it to the van, I can not weld to do it myself.

After reading the comments I do no think I will have a problem with weight the van has 3500kg chassis and 3700 cruisemaster suspension so it should be ok.

Thanks, Tony

Like Tong, good service and price.