15 amp power cable plugs

Yes Ross, I thought of that. Seems like there should be something a bit more sophisticated. After all there are a lot of us out there.
Thanks for the response anyway.

There is, it's called Amp Fibian!

Meant to ask , what is "concomitantly"?

Be careful filing down the pin the newer ones are laminated (made up of thin shims of brass)with a final wrap when you file them down they fall to bits and the plug becomes useless
The cheapest option is have a 15 amp GPO fitted in place of the 10 amp
The Amp Fabian is good and can be used where there is on 15 amp GPO but costs a bit more

Thanks Andre, I will google it and see where I can get one.
I have butchered the Queens a bit but concomitant is defined:
1. existing or occurring with something else, often in a lesser way; accompanying; concurrent: an event and its concomitant circumstances.

Shaker
Concomitantly, means Go together as in male/female I think was his thinkin'.
Me dickshunerry said so.

Did it today. Available at Bunnings. $6.25 for the female plug. Just cut off the existing female plug and put on the new one.

The old fellow

It would seem from the discussion that you would have to cut off and replace the male plug if wanting to plug it into a house 10Amp GPO.

A female plug would only work if a lead was added to the lead in question and instead of a 10 AMP male you would have to fit a 15AMP female.

Think about it..

HI
Those who have changed the plug from 15A to10A have NOW made the WHOLE extension lead NON APPROVED

It is now illegal to use it on ANY 240V supply

Very good reasons why that is so, although some armchair experts believe they know better

At present, there are only THREE ways to have a legal comply
to the LAWS set up
{a]Buy an Ampfibian converter which alows SAFE legal use of both to & 15A outlets
[b]If for home ihave a 15A outlet installed
[c]IF you are happy to limit your max current requirements to 10A, have the power inlet AND overload circuit brealker on van CHANGED to 10A by a licensed electrician

The Regulations are set up to protect all from their own or others foolishness!!!e

Sadly there are many fools who advise others to follow.in their footsteps because they believe they know better than highly qualified ELECTRICAL persons

Just because so many are made up or changed /used illegally by UNQUALIFIED persons does not make the RULES/ REGULATIONS wrong!!
PeterQ

Oh, should have considered that you need the right socket for the caravan end, which is normally 15amp, in which case you should stick with a 15 amp cable and the Amp Fibian.

If your power needs are modest and you're using a tent or CT with no 15 amp power inlet then a 10 amp extension cable is fine.

Cheers

Bill,
I had alook on the Jaycar site, but couldnt see anything that looked like I need. Any part numbers?
Thanks
Les

Les,

Rockape has already done it for you.

Just click on the "10 amp to 15 amp link" in his reply and all will be revealed.

(The Catalog No. is MS4044)

Thanks to all who contributed, I have a solution.
My apologies for the bad english, I guess its back to school for me.

Cheers
Les

The problem with fitting a 15 A power point at home is you can't take it with you when you travel. The Ampfibian can go with your when you travel.

Surely the outlets at caravan parks are 15 amp to match the caravan? So you don't need it when you travel.

Peter H

Hi PeterH

Modern CPS should have 15A outlets but many older ones will have 10A outlets [before 15A became the Standadrd
That can also apply to Showgrounds sports grounds etc
AND of course freind,s places

PeterQ

It seems another simple solution "EXPERT??????" has came out of the woodwork!!!

Can YOU show ANY proof that such is LEGAL??

IT is totally against ALL the Rules ,Regulations & Aus Standards!!!

If you doubt that, I suggest you take one along to ANY Electrical safety office & show it to them
Then see if they allow you to walk out with it!!

One thing you will also need to be prepared for is a lot of interesting questions on:
Where did you get it ??
Who made it up ??
Are you aware of the possible dangers to equipment ?
Fire risks?
Are you aware that it is illegal to use such an adapter as it is not an APPROVED electrical device??

THAT ALL electrical devices ,Appliance & accessories must have an Australian Approval for use in Aus on any supply exceeding 50V AC,??

PeterQ

Hi

Just one question seeing as you are so wise ,
Why would such be safer than a filed down earth pin???


I am sure many would be interested, since you seem to know
better than the Authorities!!!

PeterQ

Terry, I suggest you read this link

If you have a 10amp male plug on the short extension and a 15 amp female plug on the other end which you then plug in your 15amp caravan male end. Plug into a 10amp outlet and all you get is 10amps going through a 15 amp lead. Is this unsafe. If filling down the 15amp earth pin was acceptable practice then you would be able to purchase from buntings etc.

greywiki posted:[quote]

[1]
If you have a 10amp male plug on the short extension and a 15 amp female plug on the other end which you then plug in your 15amp caravan male end.
[2]Plug into a 10amp outlet and all you get is 10amps going through a 15 amp lead.
[3]
Is this unsafe.
[4}
If filling down the 15amp earth pin was acceptable practice then you would be able to purchase from buntings etc.
TerryM [end quote]

Hi
Sorry but you do not seem to understand that:
[1]A short HOMEMADE lead no matter how short with a different rated plug to socket cannot, will not, be approved as it contravenes the applicable standards for extension leads which clearly states
"THE LEAD SHALL HAVE THE SAME RATED PLUG & SOCKET"

The reasons are very sound as to why that SHALL be so
They SHALL NOT be used on a 230V suply

[2]How do you come to THAT conclusion for a short lead with a 10A plug & a 15A socket
By what means is the current limited to 10A
If you have such a means you should patent it ,quick!!

[3]Is it unsafe ?
YES, there are risk factors which is why such a "simple" adapter lead OR an extension lead with a different rated plug to socket cannot be acceptable or APROVED!!
[4]Filing down the EARTH pin has NEVER been approved & doing so makes the WHOLE extension lead NON COMPLIANT

Equipment come from the maker with the correct rated cables, pliugs & sockets.
Required for it to be GIVEN APPROVAL FOR SALE & DESIGNED USE

ANY changes to those can render the eqipment NON COMPLIANT
which means IT SHALL NOT BE USED.


PeterQ

Peter Q
I will bow out to your obvious superior knowledge & consider purchasing a amp-fibian, I was not trying to imply that one should contravene park regulations by not using the correct fat earth 15amp leads required but was looking at simple method when connecting up from a domestic house supply particularly to drop the fridge temperature before setting off & to connect to some smaller generators.
Its noted that this subject has been going on since at least 2009 and a post by a Peter in Aug 2011n on the same subject (Same Peter i guess)

Terry,
just buy the cheaper one from jay car, it will do what you want and will be LEGAL and SAFE. Part no. MS4044

To all those who advised on the Jay Car unit many thanks.

The armchair expert club is a good one to belong too, it can solicit many response's.

When choosing between 2 evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before.

TerryM

Terry,
I know what you mean. We have just left the Adelaide hills after staying with a mate and his wife.

To keep power on the van for the fridge I had a 10/15a cheap adaptor. Then I had 2 x 15 amp leads with a plastic bag over the plugs where they joined in case of rain and it did. All we were doing was running a fridge.

Now mate wasn't concerned about that at all, and he has been an electrical supervisor, electrical general manager of large electrical contracting firms, mines electrician entered in the mines, run multi million dollar electrical contracts and he has just done a huge electrical safety audit for an underground mine.

The amfibian is a top product, but maybe there is a little vested interest in it from some sources.

Mate I was more concerned about getting the van out of his yard which took a wee bit of my bygone trucking days skills, and driving through some pretty heavy fog this morning, with morons that either didn't have their lights on or they had parkers on.

HI Terry

You can use the Jaycar model legally & safely,
provided it is not OUTSIDE[ Ie it is in a shed or under a covered area @ aHOME..
NOWHERE ELSE!!
When it first went on the market a few months ago,they openly advertised it for use for caravans with no restriction on where it could be used

That was false advertising, as they DO NOTcomply foy USE in the general VAN situation,as required under AS/NZS3001 :2008 .FOR VERY GOOD REASONS

They have removed all mention of VANS etc from their advert!!
After it was brought to the attention of the authorities

At this point in time the Amfibian IS THE ONLY FULLY APPROVED
adapter that meets ALL the requirements of the various Standards & regulations

It is up to you if you follow the advise of 'armchair experts"who continue to push their "opinions" not based on any facts!!!
or follow the advise of those who do understand why the rules are made.

I still challenge anyone who thinks that any lead, short or long which has a different rated plug to socket is OK, to take it to their nearest electrical safety office & see what happens to it.!!


It seems some will persist in trying to justify their own breaking of the rules & regulations, BUT I FIND IT EXTRAORDINARY that THEY persist in trying to persuade other to also be so stupid

Yes Terry ,it was probably a post of mine
I have been trying to get people to understand why you cannot buy such a lead or adapter for some time on many Rv type forums
But you probably have seen the same "I'v used one for years ,so it must be ok" posters always show up
PeterQ

ELECTRICIAN[retired]

Re "[quote"}Now mate wasn't concerned about that at all, and he has been an electrical supervisor, electrical general manager of large electrical contracting firms, mines electrician entered in the mines, run multi million dollar electrical contracts and he has just done a huge electrical safety audit for an underground mine"[endquote]

Hi
It is a shame he did not add a liitle more to his knowledge by reading"
AS /NZS 3001"Transportable Structures & their site supply"
AS /NZS3199 "cord extension sets"
AS/NZS3100{'0utlet boxes"
AS/NZS3128
AS 3195 portable RCD protected outlet

Is he the one who also reckoned wrapping a bit of plastic around non weather proofed equipment[plugs , sockets switchgear ,etc] to make it APPROVED was OK???


PeterQ

HI Rockape
I have no VESTED interest in any electrical products available

My posts are based on a deep understanding of the reasoning behind the rules ,STANDARDS & Regulations.
AND a genuine desire to minimise /prevent accidents affecting lives & property
Apart from misunderstood information, WHATare your reasons for continueing to give advise that such leads are ok
Surely by now you KNOW, they are NOT approved
Their use contravenes STATE regulations which are LAWS
& SHALL not be used on any AC supply exceeding 50Vl


PeterQ

Hi

To ALL who have a genuine interst in electrical safety
PLEASE ignore such posts as this
Quote" To keep power on the van for the fridge
[1] I had a 10/15a cheap adaptor.[
[2]Then I had 2 x 15 amp leads with a plastic bag over the plugs where they joined in case of rain and it did.
[3] All we were doing was running a fridge[end quote ]

I do not know what service the person posting thinks he is doing in posting such outright dangerous informatiom
Perhaps he is getting a kick out of my responces ,or just trolling, but the sad thing is SOME may believe him

[1]As pointed out, totally illegal ,Non approved , which is WHY you cannot buy one & NO electrician who values his licence would make one up for you
[2]That is actually an even bigger potential problem for both electrical SHOCKS & FIRE
Any electrician or person with an electrical background SHOULD understand the many reasons

The StandardsAS3001 Cl5.1.1"'Supply lead" state "the supply lead SHALL BE IN ONE PIECE"
That means what it says one piece ,no JOINING OF LEADS FOR EXTRA LENGTH

Hi
More on the above
"plastic bag over the plugs"
Any electrical device used must be fit for& approved for THAT USE without makeshift modifications
Plastic wrapping does not make ANY no water/ nonweather proof device acceptable for such situations

If ,due to stray electrical current some one recieves a shock , the person using such NON APPROVED devices in THAT manner would be in serious trouble
IS IT WORTH THE RISK???
That is the reason Jaycar had to change their advert
Although the same poster on this forum recommended "just wrap it in plastic"

PeterQ

Peter Q,
Careful you don't get rsi from all the typing.

I see you have now changed my post to "wrapping it in plastic"
I never said anything about wrapping it in plastic. I said placing it in a plastic bag.

I will give you the full common sense method of stopping water getting in. You place the join in a thick plastic bag such as a cliplock one. You then velcro the item to a vertical stick, post or branch and let mother nature rain all over it. Some how when you remove the plugs, they are dry as a bone.

Quote "I see you have now changed my post to "wrapping it in plastic"
I never said anything about wrapping it in plastic. I said placing it in a plastic bag."

Now we are grasping at straws aren't we? If you put it in a plastic bag are not you wrapping it in plastic? Let's get real.

With common materials you can not seal up bags to be waterproof. You may have cases of them being dry when you unwrap these plastic bag devices but not in every case have I seen them come out dry. Maybe you have had success but by the persistent way you are keeping on you are promoting the use of these dangerous habits. What you are doing is to aid and abet those who may not be so diligent in their wrapping to put them self in danger. You are a danger to have on this forum. Wake up to yourself and cease promoting breaking the law.

I knew a Peter once, he was also a details man, carried check lists everywhere he went, labels on everything.

Sad thing was he got hit on a California street when he looked the wrong way.

Cold beer is good.
Man you never even mentioned the safe jaycar devise in you original reply to the poster. Why not especially when he advised what he wanted application he wanted it for. The only reason I posted was you seem to want to quote every rule in the book but not advise someone on an alternate piece of gear to do the job. You only posted about it later after I mentioned it.

As for being dangerous. If I hadn't broken the road and design rules many times by doing dodgy repairs to vehicles, I would still be sitting beside vehicles in the scrub waiting for someone to pickup my bones. Same as you see people stuck on this forum that repair the vehicle enough to get going.

A little common sense goes a long way when you face a problem and you weigh up the risk against what you are going to do.

Have a look at your industry where you have swer lines that can be a deadly as all get out. Ask the property owner with 20 dead head of cattle.
The reason. They weigh up the economic cost against the risk. Same goes for auto reclosing devises on HV powerlines.

Note! I said in my first post that having a 10/15 amp adaptor was illegal
What I choose to do is my business.

I was not put on this earth to live you to your expectations and you weren't put here to live up to mine.

Nuff said. I am going back to my nice cold beer and fishing.

Peter D,
So I don't get my straws wet I will explain something to you and I may even have to post a picture so common sense can be shown.

NOTE!. I hope you know the difference between waterproof and rain proof, that would be a good start. I hope you know the difference between wrapping something and placing it in a plastic bag as that would be another good start.

Now make sure we leave the bottom open to stop sweating and no plastic wrappers here.

RA

Be careful that "Peter the Fishing Inspector" doesn't catch you without a license.

Just googled the AMPFIBIAN web site they state that the unit is water resistant then further on they state the unit is weatherproof, nowhere does it state watertight, so have emailed them to ask about being water tight will be interesting to see what there response is going to be. Maybe wrap in a plastic bag and tie to a post? Also the AMPFIBIAN has a 1.8 metre lead, does not that contravene the regs as it cannot now be considered a continuous length.Or have I missed something. It is expensive $300 + Kiwi with no outlets here so add postage etc. Maybe I should become an agent! Won't make a fortune though as the plastic bag is popular. ( In NZ)

Still going to consider my option of purchasing, best to be potentially safer than sorry. Insurance companies like to find any excuse not to pay up. I wonder if it is acceptable to insurance companies.

Too cold at moment for a glass of beer but shot of Rum good to take the chill away.

Lyn,
not a chance. First thing I say to them is. Don't touch the licence as the ink is still wet, I just made it this morning. Second thing I say to them is. I didn't do it he did, and point at someone.

This is the motto I have used through out life.
(Never ask for permission, just ask for forgiveness.)

Terry M,
good on you for choosing the Amfibian. I have no problems with that at all.

Mate I had some nice Bundy last night, in the end I didn't feel anything at all.

All the best.

ywiki posted:
[1]Just googled the AMPFIBIAN web site they state that the unit is water resistant then further on they state the unit is weatherproof, nowhere does it state watertight, so have emailed them to ask about being water tight will be interesting to see what there response is going to be.
[2]Maybe wrap in a plastic bag and tie to a post?
[3]Also the AMPFIBIAN has a 1.8 metre lead, does not that contravene the regs as it cannot now be considered a continuous length.
[4]Or have I missed something. It is expensive $300 + Kiwi with no outlets here so add postage etc
.[5] Maybe I should become an agent! Won't make a fortune though as the plastic bag is popular. ( In NZ)

[6]Still going to consider my option of purchasing, best to be potentially safer than sorry. Insurance companies like to find any excuse not to pay up. I wonder if it is acceptable to insurance companies.

Too cold at moment for a glass of beer but shot of Rum good to take the chill away.
TerryM {end quote}


Hi TerryM


All good sensible questions
So leaving the "comic characters" ? out with their stupid comments,
here are the factual answers
[1]
The unit is approved with an IP 44 rating
Which means it is WEATER PROOF IN OPERATION as supplied does not need wrapping in anything
IT also has the necessary MECHANICAL protection features such as IMPACT resistance
THAT is what is required by the Standards
It does not require pressure testing for submersion as that would be EXTREMELY DIFFICULT & costly to achieve
& not a justifiable requirement

[2]
It Does not require any additional WEATHER proofing protection
IF it did it would not have been approved to IP44[as required by AS 3001
Despite our "unknowlegable" friend's claims THAT could never be achieved or approved with ANY IMPROVISED PLASTIC wraps or bags!!!
[3]
No, it does not contravene the Standards AS IT IS AN APPROVED ADAPTER [not an extension lead or home made non approved lead with NO safety features] as are required for an adapter which has to meet specific requirements of Standard AS 3195 "portable RCD protected outlet units"
This Standard sets:
[a] the limits on the INLET cable length

[b]The retention of ALL connections INCLUDING THE PLUG & SOCKET CONNECTION in the unit from partial or full pull out in service[VERY important]
&another feature where the Jaycar unit fails to meet the [Requirements of the Standard AS 3001.]

[c]The 10Aoverload circuit breaker & RCD to minimize the risk of fire & electric shock

[4]

The unit had to pass ALL the TESTs &requirements of mulitple Standards & is a low volume production product
While foolish people continue to promote the use of ILLEGAL, NON APPROVED, potentially dangerous, home made adapters the cost will remain high

[5]
Unfortunately when people are not aware of the Laws they may do the wrong thing ,but that will not save them if things go wrong

MY problem is with those with NO QUALIFICATIONS OR KNOWLEDGE OF WHY THE STANDARDS HAVE CERTAIN STIPULATIONS, giving advice then trying by all means to justify such advise to others
I hope SOME will understand & not follow such stupidity!!

[6 ]
Apart from CONSCIENCE if some one was injured or died ,property damaged, INSURANCE can be a very important factor

A primary reason,All Electrical Standards quoted above exist in the RV situation is to PROTECT LIVES & PROPERTY

Is saving around $250 worth that risk??
I repeat I HAVE NO INTERESTS OF ASNY SORT IN THIS PRODUCT
Mine is a SAFETY message, Knowing the outcomes of such use
The decisionon who to follow,,a truck driver or some one well qualified in the electrical field is up to each individual to decide
IIF ANYONE has further SENSIBLE questions I will endevour to answer


PeterQ

PeterQ - OldTrack123

When you notice you're, inadvertently, travelling at 1kph over the speed limit do you pull over to the side of the road, get out of the car and spank yourself on the bottom? I just wondered.

HI Terry M
I see that you are in New Zealand


That can complicate things a bit
The Australian /NewZealand Wiring rules
AS/NZS3000 & AS/NZS3001"Transportable Structures"
have some variations for some past practises in how vans in NZ were wired,with regards to earthing & neutrals
This can lead to false tripping of ANY in line RCD device,but not overload CBS.
It is not something that can be easily verified except by either actual inspection of the method used or by trial & error
Ampfibian did have a have a unit that meet this problem, but I do not think it is now available.
Perhaps you should put THAT direct to them


PeterQ


PeterQ

Quote"Nigel Migraine posted:
PeterQ - OldTrack123

When you notice you're, inadvertently, travelling at 1kph over the speed limit do you pull over to the side of the road, get out of the car and spank yourself on the bottom? I just wondered.[end quote ]
Hi
Obviously another comic supporter of the rock ape!!
I recognise I am over the speed limit & slowdown
Especially now that the so called margin has been reduced!!

I do not try to justify myself or advise others to break the laws

Does that answer your valuable contibution to the subject of
electrical safety & the use of NON approved illegal adapter leads??

Do YOU continue to drive ON BALD TYRES or with faulty brakes ??

I expect you are a firm believer in the safety of bodgy adapter leads too!!!
PeterQ

Hi Nigel
ONE other point
An inadvertant action such as you describe is TOTALY DIFFERENT to a diliberate action of breaking the law, once you KNOW what the law is.
Do you not agree with THAT premise ???


PeterQ

Welcome to ExplorOz, 52 posts, half of which are petty squabbling & now we are back to the same answer that was given in the first reply.

HI evaredy

RE"So for a long long agonising second, I decided to buy the Amphibian. Now it may seem like a lot of money for such a gadget, but it's really very cheap insurance and I know that it is designed for it's purpose and I can sleep easy knowing I have done the right thing""

I like YOUR sensible decision
Yes ,YOU have recognised the potential problems, that some others do not seem to be able to grasp
Well done
Now try to push that message every chance you get

PeterQ

HI Shaker
YES, YOU did give the RIGHT answer, but it seems many STILLl believe otherrwise,
Very sad & very alarming, when some continue to advise illegal potentially dangerous HOME MADE non compliant adapters are OK!!!

PeterQ

If you get a double adaptor and an old ground down hacksaw blade you can cut just enough of the plastic on the earth pin hole to get the 15 amp plug in, beats making up leads.

Hi

Now that fits into about the SILLIEST suggestion so far from
armchair experts!!!
You have just broken several MORE Regulations
Some people give advice BUT do not have a clue on why things are made the way they are

The perils of believing what one reads on the net is very obvious on this thread!!!
It astounds me that many with so little basic knowledge give such STUPID advise !!

PeterQ

Hi
Perhaps some simple non tecnical explanations of how the requirements of the Standards work to protect equipment, lives & property MIGHT sink in
& lead to an end to such ill informed rubbish being posted
.Sadly I doubt those can accept their errors.

In general, the various Electrical Standards entertwine to ensure that the end result when it all goes together, is as safe as practical from the point of protection of lives , property & the equipment itself

One means of obtaining this is to ensure THAT ONLY SUITABLE COMPONENTS can fit together .
THAT works until some D*#*d decides to modify a component such as many have suggested on this thread
THAT modification remove the very reason things were made they way they were!!
The protection that was built in has been removed
HOW STUPID IS THAT???
THe large earth pin on a 15A plug not being able to fit into a 10A socket OF ANY SORT is the major component in the protection
of the 10A system

A 15A plug is fitted to appliances, equipment , loads, that may draw up to 15A
IT requires a supply system including,leads, wiring cables, Switch gear & outlets that are designed to carry that load. !!


Any equipment which is modified from the makers design is no longer approved
ALL state electrical regulations state that ONLY APPOVED PRESCRIBED ITEMS ,DEVICES,EQUIPMENT SHALL BE USED on any voltage exceeding 50V AC
50V AC is considered the voltage at which an AC supply becomes HIGHLY dangerous

On an earlier post on this tread one of those with bright ???ideas suggested that joining extension leads was not a problem despite the Standards clearly stating
"THE SUPPLY CABLE SHALL BE IN ONE LENGTH"
or put simply SHALL have NO joins of ANY sort .

Again based on well accepted facts by those with electrical knowledge
Joining leads for longer length can affect for a start :
[a] the correct operation of the various Safety devices in the WHOLE System from main switchboard to the final piece of equipment!!
[b] the correct operation of appliances, end equipment, possibly even burn out

Only a single lead designed & "approved" for THAT current capacity WITH THAT length SHALL BE USED!!!


PeterQ

Hi
Just while I am in an informative mood
To All those who do have a ANY OLCB protected outlet box of any sort & are using it in ANY situation
The CORRECT place to use it is direct on the FIRST SUPPLY POINT BEFORE any extension leads.
This agains ensures it gives best protection
Using it at the end of of any extension lead can again reduce or even nullfy its abilty to respond correctly to faults.
ps It's all tied up with an electrical effect referred to as 'Fault loop impedance"!!


PeterQ

I Don't think anybody cares if you are in the informative mood or not Peter, You seem to think you are so high and mighty above everyone else, do you own every ELECTRON available and you are going to make sure they are all used correctly. There's more adapter leads out there than you could count and no-ones died yet from them. Good luck selling your amphibian to them all.

"do you own every ELECTRON available"

He does seem to think so.

Providing a 15A female to 10A male adaptor is properly made and the total load on the circuit is 10A or less then the system is perfectly safe despite the fact that AS3000 may disapprove of it. So don't run your caravan air-conditioner on it but the fridge and a few lights is fine.

The 15 amp set up in Caravans is a load of overrated hogwash, take a look in any house, there is a hell of a lot more stuff legally plugged into 10 amp circuits than you will ever get in a caravan and no problems arise.

Well
Even more Armchair experts who do not have a clue on the subject
This one is a typical pearl of misunderstanding
"The 15 amp set up in Caravans is a load of overrated hogwash, take a look in any house, there is a hell of a lot more stuff legally plugged into 10 amp circuits than you will ever get in a caravan and no problems arise
It is unbelievable that so many do not undersatand !!
But then none are electrically qualified!!

PeterQt

QUOTE: Member - Rosss posted: "The 15 amp set up in Caravans is a load of overrated hogwash, take a look in any house, there is a hell of a lot more stuff legally plugged into 10 amp circuits than you will ever get in a caravan and no problems arise"

How many houses have a 3.0Kw air conditioner & electric hot plates plugged into a power point? On top of that they still run battery chargers, water pumps, TVs, Laptops, some vans have 240 volt elements in the hot water systems & to top it off some even plug in electric BBQs!

More plugged in at home, you've got to be kidding!

PeterQt said "But then none are electrically qualified!!".

I am.

Some decades ago I did a trade apprenticeship as an electrician and worked in that area for some years. Subsequently I attended university and obtained a Bachelor of Engineering (Electrical and Electronic) and following that a Master of Engineering (Electronics Engineering). I have considered going for my PhD with a thesis on high speed real time control systems but I'm too damn old and don't have the energy these days.

Is that qualified enough for you?

HI Nigel
I have always said that being qualified?? really means nothing!!
It application of the knowledge that counts
With ALL those Qualifications you do not understand WHY such leads are illegal???
Surely You Know:
Why they cannot be sold
Why ANY electrician who makes one up for even a friend is trading in dangerous waters IF that friend misuses it
Surely you understand:
The basis of most of the rules is to ensure the best possible protection to lives & property

They are designed to AVOID MISUSE, which could in this type situation result in fire, while in use, or due to cumulative damage at some future time
ITdoes happen!!
It is a load of crap to say the lead will only be used on a 10A load so all is ok
There is no way of gauranteeing THAT!!
That is the whole reason they are BANNED

Once the connection is made to a load with multiple devises it is quite possible that that 10A limit will be exceeded
& there is no current limiter to 10A in the circuit

I find it sad that some one with your claimed expertise would encourage the average Joe to even consider having such a non compliant lead /adapter

Again the same challenge to you take one along to your local ESO
Tell them your Quals, give them your justifcation for such to be openly adivised as OK on public forums
I sure all would llike to hear the results
Why it could even clean up the matter once & for All & I would aplogise to all for my errors in advising against them
OR IF you are not prepared to confirm your opinion .do the right thing &tSHUT UP

Peter, one area I fail dismally in is understanding electrics & electronics. I am, however, well placed to argue logic & reason (academically & personally) and your lack of use of either grates annoyingly. Note: I am not discussing one way or another whether you are correct in your arguments on the topics of legal use of such leads (my brief inquiries lead me to suspect you are legally correct and mostly practically correct, just overly officious in the practical arguments).

If you are stating that qualifications mean nothing then please do not use them as part of an argument against others. If you are stating that the practical use of such leads is the major problem, then please do not pick and choose when discussing the problems, moving to the legal justification when your argument over the practical or the authoritarian (qualifications) looks weaker.

Other than your use of logic, someone like myself is, I believe, far better advised to follow your suggestions as a little knowledge really is, particularly in the field of electrical power, a potentially lethal thing.

Regards,

Mark

Hi Mark
I take your points
But, the same people continue to post the same crap here & some, elsewhere, every time this subject is raised!!
So I admit I am getting a bit abrupt in my posts at such stupidity.

My reference to qualifications not really meaning anything is well founded & based on over 60years dealing with "qualified"? persons in this field
That ranges from ordinary "tradesmen" up to "engineers"
One poster here claimed a high level of qualifications & even some electrical trades trade experience YET fails to understand the BASIS behind the Standards/ Gov REGS making such a device "non compliant "
Not to be used on ANY Supply exceeding 50V AC!!!
It seems he would rather argue the use of the term 'illegal"
The points are:

the use of such a "THING" can/ has lead to fires

The authorities recognise that by not giving it an "APPROVAL"

The State Regs basically say Only APPROVED articles SHALL BE CONNECTED /USED.
Those "Approved articles" are required for just about every thing for use in conjunction with voltages exceeding 50VAC
e,g. Counterfeits are not approved
as was shown in a recent Australia wide withdrawal of counterfeit HPM socket outlets& action taken against the importer

To see & understand the above one needs to read CAREFULLY the FULL "Electrical regulations",,, made by EACH State,as some have more stringent requirements than others!!

PeterQ

Hi Lyn
That unit does not do the MAIN job required
You would be wasting your money

IT is NOTeven a 10A to 15A adapter

It is simply what it says
An earthl leakage protection device
A simple inline Rcd type unit!!!

Again that indicates the problem of people buying on the internet when they do not even know or understand the functions required .!!
PeterQ

Come in spinner

Thanks everyone for their input into this thread.
I have purchased a Jaycar MS4044 unit which will do the job (legally) is equipped with an RCD, but regrettably is not water proof (like the Amphibian), but it cost only $79.50.
There has been a lot of discussion regarding the safety aspect of this issue and probably that is the most important thing. The regulations that we collectively seem to want to avoid have been written to ensure that safe practices are adhered to, it is a bit sad that we want to always take the easy option and not consider its consequences.

In some ways I regret the verbal war that seems to have been started over my query.
But then again if someone is educated then it was all worth while.

Cheers

Les

HI Les
Do not be too concerned about verbal war
It gives a good opportunity to show how little the many armchair experts on forums really KNOW
It is ok to voice an opinion
But to make CLAIMS on subjects of which one has no REAL knowledge
goes a bit far IMHO
Sadly that happens often on forums & the nett


All those who KNOW can do is try to ensure the right FACTS are presented.!
[You will notice I was not alone on this thread doing that.]
then the "Wheat may be able to be sorted from the chaff"

PeterQ

Does the Engel really draw 10A continuous?

Let's assume it does; so 10A x 12V = 120W.

As current = watts / volts then 120W / 240V = 0.5A.

So I think you'll be quite safe drawing half an amp through a 10A to 20A converter cable without the Amfibiam.

What I would advise is that you ensure the mains earth has been correctly connected to the vehicle chassis. Do this by using an ohm meter to check for very close to zero ohms between the earth pin on your mains cable and the negative battery terminal. If you measure more than about 0.5R (zero out the meter leads first) ask an electrician to check it.

Nigel,

"Does the Engel really draw 10A continuous?" - probably not and you're probably right about the true draw on this - I was just highlighting the fact that it was (as most fridges are), designed with a 10 amp plug - so it's probably correct to assume the draw will be no more than 10 amps, otherwise it would have been designed differently.

The 240v system in the canopy was installed by a licensed electrician (who also is one of our main traveling friends) who is also VERY conscientious about doing work correctly and ensuring the earthing is done correctly. (I didn't ask him to do the hermaphrodite cord as I know he wouldn't do it, and I wouldn't insult him professionally by asking) - however even he tacitly said the set-up wouldn't have any issues.

Just couldn't justify the cost or need of the Amfibian for this set-up .... however I'd be the 1st to agree if you were running a full-blown caravan or multiple high draw devices, I wouldn't do what I've done.

Compliant ? no - am I concerned ? no.

HI Scott
As pointed out very early in this thread you had a simple answer right at the start
IF you knew your current demand would never exceed 10A
YOU ONLY need a 10A inlet & a 10A RCD/MCB combo on the van/ camper
You can then safely & legaly use a Standard 10A<10A extension lead ,with FULL approval to the Standards, connected to 10A or 15A outlet sockets
Perhaps your electrician was not aware of that!!!
If so one wonders what else he may not have been FULLY aware of!!!

PeterQ

Peter, all good in theory, however as I said "Only issue is ... the external caravan plugs are 15 amp. "

Try buying an external waterproof power inlet that is not 15 amps.

And I resent you casting aspersions on my electrician who is also a good friend. He did nothing illegal or unethical.

Hi Scott
Approved 10A sockets are available.

Your friend would not be the first electrician who has not had a copy of AS3001
Not knowing what can /cannot be done is not casting aspersions on his abilty in anyway.

AS I said by far the best solution for low demand users
Even those with slightly higher power demands can have it that way .
They would just be limited in what they could run at the same time

Not be able to run a combined load in excess of 2400Watts
eg
A micro wave & an electric jug / kettle.
Aair con with any other medium wattage appliance


AND should be considered by ALL when ordering a camper van etc

It is is also not a big problem to retro fit
No hassles
All fully compliant
The elertician should be quite happy to issue a compliance certificate

PeterQ

"Not knowing what can /cannot be done is not casting aspersions on his abilty in anyway."

"If so one wonders what else he may not have been FULLY aware of!!!
"

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck ....

Actually, to throw the burly into the fishpond, I'd like to issue a challenge to our self appointed guru here.

"Approved 10A sockets are available. Your friend would not be the first electrician who has not had a copy of AS3001"

I have spent a considerable amount of time through Google and assorted electrical suppliers trying to find an external 10 Amp waterproof canopy [ INLET ] socket for my set up, and so far have failed miserably to find any that are sold under 15 amps. I suspect, 'probably', this is because current Standards do not permit 10 amp inlets for obvious reasons, however I'd like to see if such a beast exists...... plenty of 10A outlets....

Would strongly suspect the reason these things don't exist is because current draw on modern RV's and Caravans would probably fry the set-up... ????

So given my requirement to be able to secure my canopy while still running my fridge, the only option is to traverse it through a 15amp set up at some stage...??

Or are you suggesting I mount one of these?

http://www.electriciansupplies.com.au/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22_157&products_id=713

Hi Scott, Copy and paste this into E-bay, "10 Amp Power Inlet for Caravan Motor home and RV 240V Socket Electrical", has as many as you want.

Here's a link:

10 amp inlet socket

HI
And the Clipsal model 56A1310 MEETS ALL the requirements of the LATEST Ammendments of AS /NZS 3001
It includes a retaining/locking ring to prevent plug pull out AS IS NOW REQUIRED,& IPx6 rating

56AI310 10A 250V 3 Flat 1.5 6 66 56CSC310 A 107x101x82

PeterQ

56 Series Appliance Inlets
56 Series Appliance Inlets feature a downward
facing, angled pin housing which enables
extension socket plugs to be neatly connected
without bulky right angle entry.
A screwed lock ring is standard on all models
to secure extension sockets and appliance
connectors, and ensure IP integrity.
All mouldings are impact resistant and UV
stabilised.
Note: The IP rating is only achieved on 500V
appliance inlets if the screw-on cap (56PC
Series) provided is fitted when not in use.
All 56AI Series Appliance Inlets are compatible
with 56CSC Extension Sockets and there is no
need for special reverse pin plugs.

So oldtrack123 the ones being sold on Ebay as advertised being compliant actually are not as they do not have the screw lock ring which you claim as now mandatory,

Boy your going to be busy tonight reporting everyone.

OK - I stand corrected - but answer me this .....

If you have a 10 amp power inlet and a 15 amp external plug like most caravan parks have..... what do you do there ??? Amfibian in reverse???

Hi Scott
All very simple !!
You use a Approved 10A x10A extension lead.
It will plug into a 10A or 15A socket
BUT the van SHALL be fitted with a 10A OVERLOAD CIRCUIT breaker[not a 15A].
Just what I suggested earlier in this thread!!
No need for an Amfibian, but your max current draw is now limited to 10A even when plugged into a 15A outlet
THAT is completely acceptable under the Standards.

PeterQ

HI Scott
IF your electrician had known what the Standards allow, He would have fitted:
An Approved 10A inlet socket
An approved double pole RCD/ MCBO 10A circuit breaker
You could then use a NORMAL 10A <10A extension lead from either a 10A or 15A outlet
He let you down by not KNOWING the rules!!
Yes, I do wonder what else he may not have known covered in AS/NZS 3001 :2008

PeterQ

And Peter if you'd bothered to read my original posting I said it was run to a 10 amp fuse and plug box...... with an RCD.

The set up inside my canopy is legal and compliant for the last time !!!!!!!!!!!!!! My electrician know what he is doing !!!!!!!!!!!

I'm getting really tired of you sitting there without full knowledge and casting aspersions on others professional competency. Your self righteousness is getting under some peoples wick ... you haven't inspected the set up or sighted it, yet you're quite happy to impugn others with abandon.

Answer me this - where in any regulations or standards does it say you're not allowed to run a 10 amp device on a 15 amp circuit?????? If this is the case, then all the caravans out there are not to standard.... my set up is compliant, and probably more so than than some set ups I've seen.

HI Scott
You do have a real problem in understanding

Try reading ALL my posts CAREFULLY!!

Your Electrician fitted a 15A inlet socket !!
That gives YOU problems with connecting to a 10A outlet unless you USE AN APPROVED DEVICE [Amfibian]
YOU wish to use a NON APPROVED HOME MADE ADAPTER LEAD CONTRARY TO THE REGULATIONS

ALL that could be avoided IF your Electrician had KNOWN what the relevent Standard ALLOWED!!!
It allows the fitting of an "approved" 10A inlet socket " provided a 10A "OLCB" is fitted in the van , then the use of a 10A approved extension lead to EITHER 10 or15A sockets
Note: I hope you are not saying it is a 10A fuse, but do mean an overload circuit breaker[combined 10A RCD/ OLCB]


PeterQ

Lyn W3 posted:
So oldtrack123 the ones being sold on Ebay as advertised being compliant actually are not as they do not have the screw lock ring which you claim as now mandatory,

Boy your going to be busy tonight reporting everyone[end quote]


Hi Lyn
Actually provided they are genuine APPROVED[not counterfeit] outlets I have no need to report them
Provided they are used in such away that the cable /plug meets the Standards rRequirement of the cable & plug have a means of STRAIN relief
To mimize the risk of pullout[that is a NEW requirement due to problems encountered}

PeterQ

So you're telling me one of these:

http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mAYaPru0edswki_4e2-iKCQ.jpg

Into one of these:

http://www.uniquip.net.au/media/images/product/large/SOCKET-OUTLET-RCD-PROTECTED-10-AMP-250V-IP66-3-FLAT-PIN-37-1.png

is illegal?

And the reason we fitted a 15a external is:

1. I bought it - not the electrician and
2. 95% of my use will be into 15a supplies in Caravan Parks on the road - need to use a 10 amp supply is rare

With the exception of my hybrid cord (which I did, not my electrician) - please tell me CLEARLY where this is illegal ??????????????????????

Hi Scott
You seem to be getting even more confused or confusing
The First link is a 10A inlet socket that if you had it instead of a 15A unit,you connect the 10A extension lead from the 10A or 15A power outlet socket[either at home or cp or were ever else you wish]
All compltely legal & safe IF you havea 10A overload circuit breaker !
[BUT NOT A FUSE]

I do not see your anwser to that question
DO YOU HAVE A FUSE OR CIRCUIT BREAKER??

The 2nd link is an OUTLET socket for plugging a plug TOP into!!

You still do not seem to understand that IF your current draw is limited to 10A by a10A OLCB you can have a 10A INLET socket as in your link 1
It would REPLACE the 15A inlet socket you NOW appear to have.
YOU CAN THEN LEGALLY & SAFELY USE A NORMAL 10A EXTENSION LEAD plugged into EITHER A 10A OR 15A OUTLET socket AT A CP your home .SHOW ground, etc
WHERE EVER SUCH IS AVAILABLE
Can you understand THAT because I cannot make it any simplier!!

AS for this[quote]"please tell me CLEARLY where this is illegal ?????????????????????? [end quote ]

When you made that "THING" up you did illegal electrical work & are using a NON approved article
Which, if some thing went wrong & fault could be even partially attributed to that :"THING"
YOU would be in DEEP S#*t

Please just go back & read my posts again !!
The answers are there ;[many times]


PeterQ

HI Scott
After having a 2nd look at the first link i cannot be sure it is an" INLET" socket
I cannot clearly see protuding PINS

IF you gave a link to the Ebay site I could see wether it is referred to as an "INLET socket " or an OUTLET socket"'

BUT as I said the ebay link to 10A INLET sockets given by another poster[Lyn?] was an OK article.

PeterQ

HI Scott
I did just reread one of your posts
This bit needs some explanation
Quote "And Peter if you'd bothered to read my original posting I said it was run to a 10 amp fuse and plug box...... with an RCD.['End quote]
Just what are you trying to say??

Is this plug "box" portable? [like the multi outlet power boxes sold by Bunnings etc[Clipsal & Arlec types]

Does it realy have FUSES?

Or is it fixed wired into the van ?
with the VAN having a 15A INLET SOCKET which supplies the" box"??
Perhaps a picture of the set up would remove confusion!!


PeterQ

HI Scott
Ok I 've gone back & have now copied your original post


[Quote]No problem I says ! -
[1] I'll get one of those external caravan plugs and mount it on the outside of the canopy...
[2]and run a 240v cord to
[3] a fuse and 10 amp plug-box.
This was done duly by a LICENSED ELECTRICIAN as I wanted it done correctly. Only issue is ..
.[4] the external caravan plugs are 15 amp.
[5]Again no problem if the external power source is 15 amp,
[6]] however if the external is 10 amp[ end quote]


[1]I am sure you mean a normal15A external caravan INLET SOCKET,the MALE connection ,is that correct ?
[2] How is that 240v CORD connected to the 15A INLET socket??
[3]Is this fuse box a portable type box, like Clipsal & Arlec supplied by the likes of Bunnings,or is it fixed into location??
DOES it realy have FUSES??

[4]Again I believe you mean the EXTERNAL SOCKET is 15A?
[5]You are referring to the CP 15A SOCKET OUTLET?
&[6] your obvious concern, A need for an adapter is so you can connect to a 10A SOCKET OUTLET??

PeterQ

I've said all along it's a 15a INLET socket.... it is an external caravan inlet socket... talk about splitting hairs and getting pedantic for the sake of it.

The internal fuse box and plug socket is fixed and earthed. It's not loose. The internal fuse / rcd box is not a bunnings cheapie ..... it was supplied by a licensed electrician with 30+ years of experience, who owns his own business locally, and in all my years of traveling with, I have never known to anything dodgy or illegal.

The reason why I went with a 15amp external is 95% of the time I will use it it will be plugged into a 15a outlet with a compliant 15amp cord. Just for the 5% of time I need to run in a 10amp outlet, I (repeat I, not my electrician) decided that $250 for an amphibian would not add any additional security to my set-up.

Franky Peter, at times you seem to be on a crusade to prove you know more than anyone else, and are determined to fiund faults with others where they don't exist.

HI Scott

Perhaps you should not ask questions if :
[a]you only want answers that suit you

[b]you are not capable of understanding detailed answers

[c]you do not understand the IMPORTANCE when explaining your set of CORRCT TERMINOLOGY & the confusion that incorrect terminolgy can cause

[d]You do not understand the importance of those questions i have asked you, in an endevour to give YOU the most appropriate advise.

[e]]You do not understand that NOT being aware OF all the different Standards is not suggesting your mate is dodgy, incompetent , does illegal work or anything else
It simply means he was not aware of those Standards & what they allow & disallow
That could lead to errors

Ask him has he read AS/NZS 3001 "TRansportable Structures & site supplies"
Many electricians/electrical contractors are only familar with AS /NZS 3000 "Wiring Rules" BECAUSE THAT is all the need in their everyday work to do general domestic, commercial & industrial wiring

AS/NZS3001 has SPECIFIC ADDITIONAL requirements


I have endevoured in every way possible to show you the simple solution to your lead problem .
All quite legal, ALL quite acceptable to the STANDARD AS/ZS3001:2008

Perhaps if you showed this thread to your electrician frieind ,He would understand & carry out the simple work required to ALLOW YOU TO USE A NORMAL 10A EXTENSION LEAD from both /either a 10A or a 15A outlet socket in your home . van park ,where ever the situation may be!!!
THAT appears to be what you want!!!


PeterQ

Well I'm off to church on Sunday to thank the Lord that PeterQ is not a Police Officer.

Hi Lyn
You made 6posts to this thread
Strange, I do not see any value in ANY OF THEM
Just a waste of space & time.
Does anyone else find Lyn's contributions useful
Did Lyn even attempt to give any advice?


PeterQ

I'm 110% certain he will be told.................

Hi
He will be told by the right authorities
They have been informed
And will be in deep S*^t for selling non approved electrical articles
IF he is an electrician he will have to answer some serious questions regarding his license
If not an electrician, he will be in big trouble for doing ELECTRICAL work!!!

PeterQ

Hi
If anyone has not had enough & wants to see reactions to THAT link on another forum go to
http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39550&sid=32f195a988ddcb9f8891490258fadf37


PeterQ

Mister Q,
I hope you put as much effort into getting licensed electrical persons installing house roof ceiling space wiring looked at, as you do int worrying about the difference between an amfibian and a jaycar unit to power a van.

Sunshine. Most of the wiring in ceiling spaces doesn't even come close to the regs. Focus. Old son on the things that kill people, and the learned ticketed electrical persons that install it. I am not talking about the silver batts in ceiling spaces either.

Now it is my turn to call myself an armchair expert, and you may want to open your eyes a little wider at the profession you call your own.

You also aren't aloud to comment on my spelling or grammar, as I have just consumed 6 pints at the pub. Bogan Rockape.

HI Rockape
I make no apology for any electrician who does not know, follow rules or does poor quality work
I certainly have KNOWN plenty who fit that category

My Son, who is a licensed electrician with a large contracting Co doing commercial & industrial Electric work, primary job is testing & signing off on finished jobs
The horror things that he finds in his job makes us both sick at times !
Often greater stupidity than even that from armchair experts

There are no hopers in the Electrical trades just like in ALL occupations
The thing is in the electrical trade if they are caught breaking the rules they can recieve heavy fines & if the case is serious enough CANCELLATION of license


PeterQ

Peter,
something I have to ask, and this is not a smart arse question is.

The 10 amp outlet on the side of vans is not switched. I thought all general purpose outlets under a certain height had to be switched.

Hi Rockape
A good question, but you may find that outlet is internally shuttered /switched.
It certainly SHOULD be.
Such are now commonly used for external outlets on vans
Safer than a usual weather proof switched type which could be switched on then, some inquistive minds poke in some metalic objects.

PeterQ

hi Rockape
Further to above
Clipsal product
Cat. No:
10DWP
Description:
Socket Outlets, Auto Switched - Standard Range, Single - Standard Size - Horizontal Mount, Power Outlet Single 10A - Double pole flush weather proof with flap.
Computer Desc:
SOCKET AUTO DP W/PROOF 10A


PeterQ

Peter,
thanks for that. I just checked the outlet which is clipsal, but the Cat. No. must be on the back.

I have a double insulated 2 pin plug on our heater. Tried that in the outlet and no resistance at all. Guess the outlet doesn't have shutters.

Van build date 2007.

Sadly , not yet
Scott seems to be having a problem understanding the SIMPLE compliant to ALL the Standards solution I have put to him.

That Is the same SIMPLE solution that ALL who Know they will not exceed a 10A load can use

no need for Amfibian ,
No need for an illegal home made adapter

Simply have the inlet socket changed to a 10A & have the van circuit breaker changed to 10A
THEN use a 10A extension lead in ALL situations where either a 10A or15A outlet is available
To those ordering a van,in the same situation, you can SPECIFY THAT as YOUR requirement.

PeterQ

Satire, Peter, Satire.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/satire?s=t

You have established your argument - do you not now think it is time to allow others to do as they wish?

Butt out Peter and let us do as we please - even if we're wrong in your eyes.

It is not your responsibility to save the world and, indeed, it is arrogant of you to treat us with such disdain.

It is a sad testament to the demise of ExplorOz as we knew it.

It has started again, check out thread 103138.

Surely everyone knows about this by now? As Mark said, I fixed my problem 3 weeks ago.

Cheers

Les