12volt terminal fuse block

Submitted: Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 08:05
ThreadID: 146755 Views:2274 Replies:5 FollowUps:26
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Wondering if anyone has had any experience good or bad with this type of fuse . Looking at this for my boat auxiliary battery .

Block fuse
Cheers Nick b

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Reply By: Member - Boobook - Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 08:11

Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 08:11
I use them in my Land Cruiser. I think they were originally designed for marine applications. I mount them directly to the batteries. They're call MRBF fuses.

They take up less space than alternatives. There is a double one too. They go up to about 300A so I use them for the winch and joining batteries.

Double fuse holder

Fuses can be expensive and hard to get, though Jaycar has a good range, and keep a few spares.

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Reply By: Bob Y. - Qld - Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 08:28

Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 08:28
Recommended by many boaties, Nick.

You can buy them at Whitworths too, a reputable boating supply outlet here.

Bob

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Can't remember most of it.

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Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 11:41

Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 11:41
.
There is a problem with these MRBF type fuses……….

The construction of the fuse incorporates a ceramic component in the path of the clamping force. The fragility of this ceramic limits the clamping force and the fuse manufacturer specifies the nut torque force to be 15 inch-lbs (8.47Nm). This is a very low clamp for 8mm stud connections carrying typical currents for the application. Lug tightening specifications for such stud/cable sizes typically nominate torque as much as 19 ft-lbs (27Nm) which is considerably higher than the MRBF limitation. Note that was 19 ft-lbs NOT inch-lbs.
To make matters worse, the MRBF has a fibre washer above the lug and in the clamp path.

Electrical industry standards prohibit non-metallic components in the clamping path. In respect to Terminal Connections, AS/NZS 3000 states…. "Clamping shall not depend for its effect on pressure on non-metallic materials …"

In the past, I had considered using MRBF fuses but on inspecting their construction I decided not to and still would not use them despite their apparent convenience and even though I have seen no expressions of problems. They do not comply with good electrical engineering practice or Standards.
MRBF fuses are offered up to 300A. At 15 inch-lb torque?? No way in my book!!

DISCLAIMER: Note that the above is not offered as professional advice, simply my opinion and actions. lol

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Allan

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Follow Up By: RMD - Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 13:10

Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 13:10
Totally agree with that and they seem to be used for starter current supply too. Which to me is surprising.
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Friday, Dec 29, 2023 at 07:08

Friday, Dec 29, 2023 at 07:08
Allan,

I have not gone into the pros and cons of the mounting as you have. I can say I have successfully used these for about 15 years without a problem. I chose them as they were the only low-voltage fuse solution for winching and jump-starting my V8 Diesel, which peaks at about 400A.

I haven't read AS 3000, but I understand that it is a standard 240V / 415V wiring, not low voltage Marine and 4wd applications,

For me, if very credible fuse and bus manufacturers such as Bussman and Blue Sea have been selling them for many years, I suspect they know what they are doing. So far, they have performed very well, and I can't see any reason for concern.

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Follow Up By: Member - nickb boab - Friday, Dec 29, 2023 at 08:19

Friday, Dec 29, 2023 at 08:19
Thanks Alan . in layman's terms what may being suggested with the tensions is that the ceramic washer may break if you used a normal amount of tightening pressure that would be expected for a battery terminal.
Obviously a normal circuit breaker Style wood be a lot more economical but I did see this on a YouTube video that says space with the fuses selling on eBay for around $14 that would be tripled at a reputable dealer no doubt

Haha ;)) you are sounding like the ABC with your disclaimer at the end.

Thanks for your input it is appreciated regard Nick
Cheers Nick b

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Friday, Dec 29, 2023 at 09:28

Friday, Dec 29, 2023 at 09:28
Hi Boobook,
It is true that Bussman and Blue Sea are credible suppliers and I did say " I have seen no expressions of problems" with these fuses. But the specified nut torque of 15 inch-lbs is very low for the application. Consider….. it is only 0.5kg pull on a typical 15" torque wrench. I suspect that many applications of these fuses are actually tightened more than that and fortunately have not fractured the ceramic.

AS300 is not confined to 240v wiring. It also covers ELV. But my extract from it had nothing to do with voltage …. it related to advice that non-metallic components should not be in a clamp path of a current carrying device. And that is standard electrical engineering practice for any voltage. The reasons should be obvious.

But when all is "said and done", if it works for you then it works for you. It's just not good enough for me.

p.s. I also wonder how many people have chosen to save cost and not employed the proper MRBF fuse holder with its isolated stud but have simply place the fuse over a 8mm stud and the wire lug on top then the nut. Looks OK to them, but the lug is actually connected directly to the supply with no current passing through the fuse.
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Allan

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Friday, Dec 29, 2023 at 09:51

Friday, Dec 29, 2023 at 09:51
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Nick, the basis of my criticism is that the construction with a ceramic component in the clamp path limits the amount of tightening force to a value well below industry standards for cable lugs on studs. I also have concerns for thermal changes affecting the expansion/contraction of the ceramic with consequent effect upon the clamp force. For me, any joint in a current carrying path needs substantial forming to be reliable.

By the way, my "disclaimer" related to an earlier thread where I made an absolute clanger.
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Allan

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Reply By: RMD - Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 13:25

Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 13:25
Nick.

What auxiliary system needs 300 Amp fuses?
I don't know what starter motor your boat has but if the starter draws plenty of current on startup, then the fuse is taking all of that. If it isn't in the starter path, why have a 300a fuse anyway. I would prefer a few smaller fused circuits supplying devices etc.

Even if the fuse IS to be used in the start circuit or NOT, I would, even for normal engines, ie, in vehicles too, service the starter motor so the bearings are lubricated with a decent lubricant, ie, Telfon grease where applicable and Mobil 1 or similar, which doesn't dry out like many others do, on bushed and Felt oiler pads. That way you will have far less internal friction in the starter as it will crank faster than before and for less time., AND with less current draw. So why have a 300A fuse in the circuit?
Even apply some Moly spray to the ring gear and / or starter pinion teeth as that will further reduce cranking friction.
Recently I serviced my 12 yo, Toyota Corolla which was using too much crank amps and was slow. Doing the above made the engine crank much faster.
AnswerID: 644987

Follow Up By: Kazza055 - Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 14:15

Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 14:15
I can't think of anywhere in a car, boat or caravan where you would need a fuse larger than 50A. Remember that a fuse is used to protect your cabling and a 200A or 300A will more than likely see your wiring burn out before that size fuse blows.

In my D-Max I have 2 x 50A fuses, one is the supply to the battery in the tub. The second is the supply to the three way fridge in the van.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 15:38

Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 15:38
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Well RMD & Kazza, some of the more recent caravans and motorhomes are being outfitted with 3kw inverters to run induction cooktops, coffee machines, water heating and whatever. Such 3kw inverters draw in excess of 500 Amps on a 12v supply.
An American forum for Mercedes Sprinter motorhomes abounds with 3kw inverters and 800Ah of lithium batteries to power their appliances, charged from 250A secondary alternators on the engine.
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Allan

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Follow Up By: Kazza055 - Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 15:56

Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 15:56
Yes, and they will be fitted with appropriate sized solid copper buzbars to handle these loads, not some punnie pair of wires.

What I am saying, if you only need 50A, why use a 200A fuse.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 16:28

Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 16:28
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Only Boobook said that he is using a 300A fuse. for winching.
Who is suggesting using 200A fuses for 50A circuits? The Yanks I referred to are not using bussbars, they use a paralleled pair of 000 (3/0) AWG cables (a total of four) to achieve 170mm2 and 480A rating. Those are certainly not "puny wires".
But they don't use MRBF fuses of any rating.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 16:35

Thursday, Dec 28, 2023 at 16:35
Let's get real. I don't know why a number of you are carrying on about fitting 300 A fuses. There are a range of these fuses with ratings from 30 to 300 A available. For example, this one comes with a 60 A fuse, but clearly states 30 to 300 A can be supplied. You simply state the size of the fuse you require at ordering time.


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Follow Up By: Member - nickb boab - Friday, Dec 29, 2023 at 02:51

Friday, Dec 29, 2023 at 02:51
Thanks for replies .. was only thinking around 80/100.it was to protect a electric boat motor Minn Kota 55lb & the charging wire from the starter battery about a 4 b&s i think that also start the boat motor had the cranking main battery die for any reason

Any recommendations application
Thanks nick
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Follow Up By: IvanTheTerrible - Friday, Dec 29, 2023 at 22:34

Friday, Dec 29, 2023 at 22:34
I would use a manual reset circuit breaker. Gets bloody expensive if you (accidentally) blow a big fuse. And nobody ever carries a spare.
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Saturday, Dec 30, 2023 at 18:15

Saturday, Dec 30, 2023 at 18:15
What manual reset breaker do you recommend Ivan? I have tried Jaycar ones in the past for the very reason of not needing to carry spare fuses but they never seem to hold a load and trip out thermally
Reverted back to fuses
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Follow Up By: RMD - Sunday, Dec 31, 2023 at 10:44

Sunday, Dec 31, 2023 at 10:44
Nick.
To save a LOT OF CONFUSION about FUSES, perhaps you should, as many others also should do, is to initially give some MORE information about the situation you intend to use the fuse or item within which wil l narrow the comments to be more targeted.. Stating and showing 300 amp indicates to me STARTER CURRENT type fuse capability, so you get appropriate comments to that. Other people were also con"fused" too. Eventually you tell us it is simply a little propeller on an electric motor, which just happens to be boat related. Talk about leading people up the garden path!
Even if relying on a fuse for that, how do you get power to the motor out in the middle of the lake after the fuse has blown? and problem ID'd, oh of course, there is plenty in the spares you carry. Maybe a spare battery cable!
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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Sunday, Dec 31, 2023 at 12:10

Sunday, Dec 31, 2023 at 12:10
Yer Nick, lift ya game.
Dave.
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Follow Up By: Member - nickb boab - Sunday, Dec 31, 2023 at 12:39

Sunday, Dec 31, 2023 at 12:39
RMD : I thought it was pretty clear from the get-go that this was for a uxiliary battery on my boat ( not a boat question but a electrical question ) and clearly states from 30 amp to 300 amps for different applications . no mention of any starting battery ! my question was has anyone had any experience with these type of fuses good or bad ?? which Alan pretty well somed it up from the get-go . Very sorry for any confusion and wasting people's time .
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Sunday, Dec 31, 2023 at 12:45

Sunday, Dec 31, 2023 at 12:45
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Nick, 4 B&S is rated at 60A continuous current. OK for your small electric motor. You can certainly draw more through the 4 B&S for brief loads such as cranking though you may then suffer from volt-drop limitations. I would suggest 300A fuse to be more appropriate and even that may be inadequate for cranking a large motor, especially diesel with its high compression.
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Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - nickb boab - Sunday, Dec 31, 2023 at 18:51

Sunday, Dec 31, 2023 at 18:51
Allan thanks ..my invoice stated
6 b&s 140.amp (50M) ?? ) 4 meters twin core ..sorry not 4 b&s .

Marine shop suggested 8 mm cable from memory .

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Follow Up By: IvanTheTerrible - Sunday, Dec 31, 2023 at 22:58

Sunday, Dec 31, 2023 at 22:58
150 AMP HIGH AMP MANUAL RESET
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Follow Up By: Member - nickb boab - Monday, Jan 01, 2024 at 07:45

Monday, Jan 01, 2024 at 07:45
Thanks Ivan : quite amazing the price difference between the cheap to the more expensive quality brands Some well over the hundred dollar Mark

Cheap price

Narva price
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Monday, Jan 01, 2024 at 10:14

Monday, Jan 01, 2024 at 10:14
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Nick, it is amazing the retail price range for apparently identical products and Narva leads the pack.
I buy cheaper but from reputable dealers.

6 B&S is rated at about 40A continuous current.
"8mm" diameter is 0 B&S and rated at 150A. (typical heavy starter cable)
8mm2 (area) is equivalent to 8 B&S and rated at 24A.
It is not clear just what you have.
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Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Monday, Jan 01, 2024 at 10:25

Monday, Jan 01, 2024 at 10:25
I have had the opportunity to examine a number of these type circuit breakers labelled "WATERPROOF" and non of them exhibited waterproof construction.
In fact I had a pair under the bonnet of the Troopy and one became unreliable. I opened it up to see why and found the enclosure to contain considerable very fine dust. I replaced them with fuses.

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Follow Up By: IvanTheTerrible - Monday, Jan 01, 2024 at 15:58

Monday, Jan 01, 2024 at 15:58
I have used hundreds over the years in both 4x4 and Marine and never had a Narva unit fail. EVER!
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Follow Up By: Member - nickb boab - Monday, Jan 01, 2024 at 16:07

Monday, Jan 01, 2024 at 16:07
Thanks Allan : visually the the twin core cable I used from the auxiliary battery back to the main starter battery looks same size in this picture
.

The cable is 4 meters in length & was to keep the auxiliary battery charged and maybe to assist in starting had the starter battery go doughy .
It is also fitted with a Narva voltage sensitive cutout switch.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Monday, Jan 01, 2024 at 16:35

Monday, Jan 01, 2024 at 16:35
.
Ivan, not having a Narva failure does not necessarily mean that they are any better than breakers of identical design (and possibly from the same manufacturer) than those at a fraction of a price. All Narva products seem very highly priced in comparison with the general market.

And close inspection reveals that they, as with others, are NOT "waterproof" as labelled. This may not matter in most applications but it is nevertheless false labelling.
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Allan

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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Tuesday, Jan 02, 2024 at 08:10

Tuesday, Jan 02, 2024 at 08:10
Having been in the automotive sector of the industry when brands like Narva, Projecta and electra were introduced to the Australian market as cheap copies of leading brand products in Narvas case, I just cant get the memory of utterly crap products inferior in every way and failed every time we used one of the free samples, out of my mind.
Projecta advertised heavily just before Christmas and fathers day for gift purchases that would never get claimed for when they melted. Who remembers projecta adds for the 3000 mAMP battery chargers and 1 million CP spot lights?
Narva still have 2 completely identical looking ranges of automotive bulbs. One is a half decent trade quality and the other is the ones in the big foam display boards in servos and spare parts shops, ten seconds with the foot on the brake and the crimp holding the filament unfolds.
Unfortunatly the old "you get what you pay for" doesn't work anymore because there is so much over priced cheap crap being privately imported now you can't tell. Best way is to buy from businesses that actually use the products they sell so they have experience of the performance of said products.
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Follow Up By: Garry L - Tuesday, Jan 02, 2024 at 09:24

Tuesday, Jan 02, 2024 at 09:24
" Unfortunatly the old "you get what you pay for" doesn't work anymore "

Many years ago Phillips trialled an experiment in Woolworths where they placed one thousand standard 240v household light globes in a large cardboard box - next to that they placed another one thousand standard 240v household light globes in a box.

The 2000 globes were Phillips standard globe but one box was priced at 50 cents and the other box priced at $1.00

The box of $1.00 globes sold four times faster than the 50 cent ones which showed that people thought if you paid more you got better quality but they were the exact same product !

Not sure how that would work today with the current cost of living and so many people struggling !


Cheers
Gazz

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