Towing with Hilux

engine size should be a match to weight carried adding a chip regardless of all the hype will shorten engine life a factory spec engine good for say 300000lk in normal use put same engine in a drag com and get maybe 10 races with a chip your hilux should fall some where in between, a bit exaggerated go for a bigger veihcle but good luck with it anyway

Punctuation for Pete's sake.

Stop complaining. There's a comma after between.
Dave. :)

Hi all and many thanks,Hilux max towing is 2250kg it's an auto 3lt. Weights are van 2.060 and car 2.480 total 4.540, the car is in excellent condition and has 188,000 on the clock there is also a snorkel fitted. I realized the economy will be down due to the caravan being full height, the tires are at 44 psi and breaks are not dragging. Before chip and exhaust system is fitted the mechanic will be going over fuel systems from filter to injectors, may have carbon build up in manifold maybe the problem. Went out to Birdsville for the big bash and was very disappointed with power and economy, we are intending on going down the east coast to Tasmania and would like to know if Hilux would be able to cope with the trip.Would the Roo system up grade be useful or do we need up grade in car that can tow 3tn.
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3 very good replies so far . . . added to Batts above, if yours is an auto, I would also upgrade to a higher capacity transmission oil cooler, as these are under a heap more stress touring with a larger / heavier van, which it sounds like it could be.

Hi all and many thanks,Hilux max towing is 2250kg it's an auto 3lt. Weights are van 2.060 and car 2.480 total 4.540, the car is in excellent condition and has 188,000 on the clock there is also a snorkel fitted. I realized the economy will be down due to the caravan being full height, the tires are at 44 psi and breaks are not dragging. Before chip and exhaust system is fitted the mechanic will be going over fuel systems from filter to injectors, may have carbon build up in manifold maybe the problem. Went out to Birdsville for the big bash and was very disappointed with power and economy, we are intending on going down the east coast to Tasmania and would like to know if Hilux would be able to cope with the trip.Would the Roo system up grade be useful or do we need up grade in car that can tow 3tn.

Yeah, towing what is effectively a brick is terrible, even a little gear on a roof rack is noticeable to most drivers.

Good first port of call having all those things checked by the mechanic Dean.
If he knows his stuff he might well get to the bottom of it and rectify the issue.

If there is carbon (EGR soot and PCV oil mist mix) in the manifold, it would be a really good idea to eliminate at least the oil mist with a Provent 200 catch can.

Even better, do the catch can AND though not legal, an EGR 'fix' is worth thinking about.
EGR is a filthy system, and when your lovely diesel engine MAP sensor etc gets coated, a vehicle can run poorer anyway and pollute as much or more than with NOx reduced by an EGR system.

Towing though, your vehicle would be under load a lot more, and the EGR would normally be turned off in that case, the EGR is only open when cruising with little load, downhill etc.

My EGR fix has a neat cabin mapper (fuel adjustment) and also this little LED.
It glow amber when the EGR is normally open (bad) and green when it is normally closed, it gives me a good idea just how much the EGR is on or off under what circumstances.
My EGR is blocked with a 2mm blank plate (just to be sure :)), on top of the electronic 'turned off' signal 100% of the time . . .
Google ozbushelectronics . . . he makes them for the Prado and Hilux, as well as Rangers / BT50s.

Very good economical mod, the cabin mapper model is the go, can adjust fuel up / down a little, thoguh I really don't even notice the difference, you might when towing.
I only got it for the EGR fix.

When I had an egr blank, I would get codes under high load driving.

Many vehicles will get a CEL light come up with a EGR blank plate fitted Paul.
Some makes don't apparently.

In vehciles that do get codes come up, then and 'Insufficient EGR flow' is detected and an error code P0401 will usually come up in a short time.
Some vehicles can be sorted by drilling a small hole (usually around 10mm) in the blanking plate, so most gases are stopped, but not all.

Or better, the Ozbush Electronics module ensures no codes.

Tad concerned about the GCM being (just over 4500) from what i can figure out with simple maths C class licence only allows maximum 4500 kg so your out of class weight wise and insurance null n void and if a smart pants lawyer or accident investigator was to check weights involved might be in bigger hole than a grave

I have a prado d4d auto so in principle the same configuration.

Have you ever has ERG system checked for blockage this may make a world of difference - have system cleaned and fit a provent or similar (oil catch can) to prevent erg being fouled

injectors are a must if you have access to a OBD2 reader try get pressure reading taken when at normal tempreture LOD is reading I believe is needed (read that on another forum) mien still new from 2008 245,000 km so far no issues touch wood

Prado auto boxes are very sensitive to gear hunts esp when towing - suggest a minimum of a torque convertor lock up kit still allows gears to change up n down just need to unlock it like disengaging a clutch when coming to a stop otherwise engine stalls

Dean,

"Tad concerned about the GCM being (just over 4500) from what i can figure out with simple maths C class licence only allows maximum 4500 kg so your out of class weight wise "

If you are quoting the following from this link

Under a C (Car) licence you can drive
"A motor vehicle (with or without a trailer), other than a motorcycle, that:
has a maximum weight of 4.5 tonne (t) gross vehicle mass (GVM)"

then I would have to say that is the most confusing and ambiguous bit of govt departmental gobbledygook I have seen for a while.

If you remove the motorcycle exception to simplify the sentence so it reads

Under a C (Car) licence you can drive
A motor vehicle (with or without a trailer) that has a maximum weight of 4.5 tonne (t) gross vehicle mass (GVM)

Does that mean you can drive a motor vehicle with a GVM of max 4.5 tonne and then attach a trailer?

Or does it mean that the motor vehicle and attached trailer must not weigh more than 4.5tonne? In which case the term "GVM" is inappropriate because by definition in ADRs that applies only to motorised vehicles. The correct term for the max combined weight of a combination is GCM for Gross Combined Mass - again defined in ADRs.

I think it means the former, and that you have interpreted it to mean the latter.

If it did not mean the former, then just about every caravanner would be "out of class" which I'm sure is not the case.

Cheers

Yes I think that would be a bit of a concern there would potentially be thousands of drivers out there with the incorrect licence for towing with a GVM max of 4.5t. That is the max weight you can drive with on a C class licence and it doesn't make any difference if your towing or not as towing your total max weight cannot go beyond 4.5t so a light truck licence may be in order for lots because if you have an accident and your insurance finds out I expect you may not be covered. The other concern would be if there is another vehicle involved the damage to them or their vehicle may not be covered by your insurance if your at fault. I may be wrong but it's worth checking up on.

I had a discussion about this matter with a DOT heavy vehicle inspector (west aust) about the GVM GCM issue and 4wd towing caravans etc on another forum.

They agree its a very vague area per say there isn't a value mentioned for GCM only GVM and these two terms are totally different values.

They are of same opinion of mine needs to be less then 4500 kg all up and they will charge fine a operator of vehicle if they can obviously see its being run overweight, they will put it onto scales and check against manufacturers specifications. and advise about weight distribution etc.

They also fully support the notion (as do I) that anybody towing needs to have a special towing endorsement on their licence.

Remember the uproar of needing a recreational licence for operating a tinny/runabout for maybe once or twice a year - all about safety and competency,

Same thing applies to towing I have watched many a folk at local waste transfer station trying to reverse a trailer with a smaller hyundai I20/30 plus larger vehicles just add ibenny hill theme song and you have the idea.

I confess a 6x4 behind a prado is invisible why I go for 7x5 when towing a hire trailer !

Lets get this straight

A pesenger car licence alows you to drive a vehicle up to 4.5 tonnes WITH a trailer up to 4.5 tonnes ... nationally.

Its scary to many of us that you CAN drive a 9 tonne combination on a passenger car licence yet require a higher rated licence to drive a much safer and easier to drive vehicle over 4.5 tonnes ..... like an unmolested Coaster buss ..... from memory a coaster is 6 tonnes GVM from the factory with a 2 tonne tow rating ..... many have their coasters recomplianced as a 4.5 tonne GVM vehicle.

I don't know about the other states but the published guides in QLD (not legeslation) make this abundantly clear.

there are other similar allowances for the various heavier licences ... light, medium and heavy rigid licences allow you to tow a trailer up to 9 tonnes GVM.

now here is the fun bit ... the GVM is the mass at the wheels ...... SO you can have fifth wheel articulated trailer with an agirigate trailer mass of 5.5 tonnes and tow it on a passenger car licence because its GVM can be 4.5 tonnes with a tonne borne by the hitch on the back of a tow vehicle less than 4.5 tonnes

Likewise On a medium rigid licence one can drive a medium rigid drawn 12 tonne single axle semi-traler, because 9 tonnes is borne by the axle and 3 tonnes borne by the prime mover ...... Coca Cola are running similar rigs as we speak.

If you are going to play this towing game ... YOU MUST know your licence regs and all the terms related to load carrying and towing.

GVM
ATM
GCM

and a number of other terms a MUST KNOW things.

cheers

The injectors in my Landy are almost on 300k and never been touched except to be tested a few months ago at my request. They said nothing wrong. It's a modern crd.

Agree, 100k replacement is a generalization.
May be true for non-CRD engines.

The other thing to remember is hilux dual cabs have pretty small fuel tanks .... the single cab diesels have about 50% more capacity.
AND because diesel engines use recirculating fuel to cool in injection system the whole tank capacity is not available for burning

so ya probably got a 60 litre tank of whick 50 is litres is available and you probably refill around 45 is litres .... ya doing reasonably well to get 350 odd Km

cheers

In most small diesels this will be around the 3000 to 3500 RPM.

Geezus 3000 rpm and slightly above prado is running out of puff and like the original poster we both have similar engines redline line is 4000 rpm maximum

max torque on 1kd fitted to my 08 prado is around 2000 rpm when I do a manual shift point change at 2500 (on the road) then it settle back down to 2000 rpm only if i have to give it herbs (get that gap between traffic from standing start across highway) would I use 3000 rpm or more but only in D not a lower gear

Nothing beats low RPM's for diesel engine economy. One you start going over 2500-2750 RPM's, a lot of unburnt diesel starts going out the exhaust, because it's a slow-burning fuel.
To give you some idea, the latest Cummins truck engines are sitting on 1100RPM at 105kph, to get maximum fuel economy.

I've got a 2013 Hilux single cab with the 1KD-FTV diesel - and this engine produces its maximum torque at 1400 RPM (343NM). Mine is a manual. I don't like the engine sitting on more than 2700 RPM for long periods - but 2700 RPM is 115kmh in 5th and that's plenty fast enough for me.
I only rarely exceed 3000 RPM when doing a quick overtaking manouevre - and I then settle back to 2500-2600 RPM.

This engine is a good little performer, I get 8.5L/100km lightly loaded and rarely get worse than 10L/100km when loaded and not towing.
Towing a little over 2 tonnes usually sees the economy drop to around 14-15L/100km. The single cab has an 80 litre fuel tank, the dual cabs tank is 76 litres.

If you follow anyone towing maximum GCM with a 3.0L diesel, you can see the fuel economy they are getting, by the amount of black smoke pouring from the exhaust. It can be pretty enlightening, watching this.

Lots of black exhaust smoke is simply lots of unburnt diesel going out the tailpipe.
A diesel running properly and economically should only ever show a dark haze from the exhaust, with no visible smoke.
One needs to remember that visible exhaust smoke for 10 continuous seconds, is all that is needed for the Monarchs to give you a yellow sticker.

Cheers, Ron.

Different engines in different vehicles have a different sweet spot ........ if ya want to push the low RPM thing some of the big old diesels are on the rev limiter at 2000 rpm.

What a cummins engine is doing is irrelivent to what a 3 liter hilux is doing.

Whatever the vehicle sits on at 100Kmh in fifth gear is usually an indicator of the sweet area .....

Black smoke coming out of diesels is often an indicator of being over fueled at too lower RPM



The 1KD-FTV is a 3.0L (2982cc) straight-4 common rail D-4D diesel engine with a variable nozzle turbocharger (VNT) and Intercooler. It has 16 valves and a DOHC (double overhead camshaft) design. Bore is 96 mm and stroke is 103 mm. It generates 172.72 hp (127 kW) at 3400 rpm, and 260 lbf·ft (352 N·m) of torque at 1800-3400 rpm depending on target market and emission specifications. In some markets, outputs are 127 kW (170 hp)/410 N·m (302 lb·ft) and 140 kW (188 hp)/ 420 N·m (310 lb·ft).[citation needed] Redline of this engine is at 4200 RPM. Compression ratio is 17.9:1.

If you look at the power and torque curves in this following document you will see that at 2500rpm you are getting about 2/3 of the power available at 3500 .... you will also note that the torque and power curves fall over after 3500.

http://www.powerchipgroup.com/datasheets/1/TOY0098.pdf

Yeh you might get good fuel economy out of lightly loaded diesels at low RPM ...... but they simply will not be making enough power to do the job ....... efficiency of diesels is better at higher RPM in the sweet spot, because they are a compression operated engine and the quicker and harder the air fuel load is compressed the more efficiently it burns.

The slow burning nature of the fuel is why the torque and power curves fall over after about 3500 rpm in small engines. .... in that particular engine ( the 1kd-ftv) the torque curve never peaks ..... but it does fall over.

Compression efficiency increases with RPM till it is limited by the fuel burning speed .... thus the same power curve ( with different figures) pretty much in nearly every modern smallish diesel.

Running heavily loaded diesels at low RPM is a mistake many people adhere to .... for many people it is an emotional choice ..... they just can not concieve that running a diesel at high RPM is a good thing ......running a diesel heavily loaded at low RPM, makes smoke, burns more fuel results in higher EGTs and simply does not make the necessary power.

As for sitting on 115Kmh at 2700RPM ..... that is the vehicle sitting on the back of the power curve right where it should be ..... it probably sits at about 100Kmh in fifth it will be sitting around 2400 ....... but you should not be towing a heavy load in 5th, that is a guarantee of a short life for your gearbox.
Drop back to 4th gear and you are right up around 3000 RPM at 100Kmh.

Right back where I said.

If ya want to pull up that hill and do it easily, you'll need to be back a gear or two and be in the 3000 to 3500 RPM range or you will be trying to do it with much less than the available power. ... back at 2500 you will have 2/3 of the available power.

There is little point running over 3500 because the power drops off before the 4200 redline ... just like I said.

If your Prado is running out of puff at 3000 RPM, I'd be looking for an intake restriction, blocked up injectors, carbed up rings or some other problem ..and they get that way if you baby them ........ it should be pulling willingly all the way to 3500.

cheers

The OP is not talking about a Prado, he's talking about his 2011 Hilux.

The D4-D, 1KD-FTV engine comes in numerous states of tune, according to vehicle fitment - not just "target market and emissions specifications" - and the 1KD-FTV engine in the Prado has a different state of tune to the 1KD-FTV engine in the Hilux.

The Hilux engine produces maximum torque from 1400RPM - not 1800RPM.
1800RPM is the commencement of the maximum torque for the Prado engine.

I was brought up with a very basic diesel operation principle since I started operating diesels at 16 in 1965.
If you are lugging a diesel under heavy load, that's O.K. But if you are indulging in engine lugging, whereby the engine RPM does not increase with the application of more throttle, then that style of engine lugging is extremely life-shortening to a diesel engine, and you need to reduce the load on the engine.

That mantra has been utilised by myself and everyone I have trained in the use of diesels, since 1965, and I've never destroyed a diesel engine by overloading, yet.

As regards your talk of "power", I was under the impression we were talking about Torque.
HP or Kw is what you are confusing with torque - because HP or Kw is the speed at which the work is being done.
Torque is the level of twisting force being applied to a shaft.
Torque is the measurement from which HP or Kw is calculated - because HP or Kw is the RATE at which the work is being done - and Torque is the engines ability to carry out the work.

Hilux 1KD-FTV torque curve
Cheers, Ron.

Read my original post again ...... read my recent post again.

I am perfectly aware of what torque and power are and their relatiuonship.

The unarguable fact remains ...... if you are trying to pull a load at 2500RPM, you have 2/3 of the power available at 3500 RPM.

The OP was concerned about the lack of power.

People all to often bang on about torque ..... it is "power" that does "work" .... it is power that moves the vehicle along the road, it is power that pulls the trailer up the hill.

If you want to get the job done, go back a gear and get the revs up and get more power. ..... and probably use less fuel doing it.

cheers

250k on original injectors, must be some kind of record ! Just wondering if you have a secondary fuel filter fitted and or a catch can ?

I've done around 180,000km, mainly towing and lots offroad, in our 09 manual Hilux, and it's performed faultlessly.
Injectors are original, and apart from paying close attention to normal maintenance (filter changes etc) there has not been any issue.
Not the quickest beast off the mark, but driven properly it's a great vehicle.

Hi Wicket. Its not fuel that wears them out its the crap in the fuel mainly water, i dont have an extra filter (will be the first thing fitted on a new one though) but i always pump a bit of fuel out into a plastic container each oil change. Any water in it and i change the filter. I will bet that lots of hilux owners have been had regarding injectors. The first crd hilux up to when they upgraded the engine (at least till then i was only concerned with mine) had a problem with the orings on the injectors. When a hilux was parked facing slightly uphill oil from the engine would leak pass the injector into the combustion chamber, when started they would blow smoke and rattle till the oil was burned off. That was what mine was doing, i rang our local dealer and by chance got the service manager who said, i bet you park uphill at night, which i did. Long story but fixed by 4 orings. They did a recall on some models it was that bad. A lot of injectors replaced as well by other service places without need.
Cheers Graeme

Bosch and others makers like delphi state their crd injectors are good for a Billion operations, which is the life of the vehicle, as said it is contaminates in the fuel that wear them out.

I defy anyone to provide written proof from a diesel injection shop, that their 250,000km injectors are still providing "as-new" performance, by way of perfect injection spray pattern and (internal) leak-free operation.

Correct injector spray pattern is crucial to a diesel's economy. The injector spray pattern is affected by wear of the moving components, erosion of the injector spray orifice/s by tiny dirt and water particles (keeping in mind that 2 microns is the average filtering ability) - and by carbon build-up on the injector tip, caused by the burning of thousands of litres of fuel over multiple years.

The old, mechanical-style injectors had one moderate-sized orifice, and did one injection spray on each firing stroke.
Todays CR injectors have between 4 and 8, much tinier orifices, in the tip, and they carry out "pulsed injection", meaning up to 5 injection pulses in the one firing stroke.
This simply means todays CR injector is working a lot harder, and has much more potential for the tinier spray orifices to block up with carbon - and they have less allowance for erosion wear in the orifices.

Cheers, Ron.

Ron, see you have been talking about cummins engines elsewhere in this post. I know first hand of 3, 600hp speced CRD ISX engines that didn't have their injectors changed until just short of 800000K. They were only changed as they were coming to end of their life and not because of any problems.