Mechanic seized up my Landcruiser engine (1HZ)

HM GEM Engines have been around for over half a century. Have used them back in the 80s. They used to re-manufacture engines rather than overhaul them, ie they had a production line that bored things out to a non-standard replacement size so things like valves were not standard OEM oversized parts. However their re-manufactured engines lasted at least as long as the originals and generally longer.

Okay thanks for your comments Peter and Muzbry. At least I know Gem is reputable and a should get a reasonable engine back.

Go for the gem engine. I have dealt with them and had great satisfaction with their short motor.

Thanks Tony, your right, requests not demands. The owner is reputable and doing the right thing.

I had talk with Toyota today and they still make the 1HZ engine about $13k list and perhaps as low as $10k thru a dealer. Rebuild probably around $6k.

I'm in Sydney.

Thank for your comments.

Your forgetting that unlike you........
We all have made mistakes at work, that is the human factor.

but I bet you have made mistakes before and it doesnt get posted on the forum.
for everyone to get on their soap box or arm chair warriors

Such as history....
like bringing in cane toads or the dreaded carp...rabbits foxes and pigs
or should I rant on on how much other disasters all contributed to human kind.
plane crashes....chernobyl and on and on...


the mechanic owned up to his mistake.
Even lent his personal car.

bit unfair to bash the mechanic, pretty much saying his a idiot.
and doesnt deserve his trade papers.

do you know the complete whole story ? NO

I would highly recommend asking for a genuine toyota rebuilt kit be used during the rebuild of said engine

Some Mechanics have a strong ethic about their Name so don,t bash them. I am 65 and still work part time.

An ex apprentice of mine destroyed an engine after fitting a wrong Alternator. Relied on the supplier saying it was correct instead of making sure.

I have a simple motto in life...

...Sh1t happens, it's how the sh1t gets sorted that matters.

Cheers

Anthony

Some mechanics have strong ethics, usually the ones who check things and want it correct and get it correct all their life.

1. The oil was drained. That should be finished by refilling in the normal world. Something wrong if it isn't.
2. The oil level checked, Can't have been done. Bell No.2 not ringing.
3. Filter replacement was not done or forgot, Bell No. 3 not ringing.
4. Oil light on, No dash check done. Bell No. 4 not ringing.
Something is wrong with the mechanic not to do 4 vitals in a row and miss the lot.
Yes he is at fault but how could you, Drugs, grog, Migraine, there has to be some plausible reason why. Definitely a liability to the owner of the business.

60 series cruisers would shutdown if no oil after 30 seconds, Does 1HZ have that feature too?? If so, it wasn't working either.

I would like to have a new Toyota diesel fitted as it will enhance the vehicle and give the required reliability and a FActory warranty too.

This so called mechanic should be taken out the back and thrashed within an inch of his life ( and then some) with a dip stick . Get a life people.
Dave.

And here lies the problem with the whole world.
the guy stuffed up... made a mistake
and you want to bash him till his almost dead.
you seriously have got issues when there are bigger problems in the world than a motor running dry of oil.

his gone out of his way to help the customer out.

damn soo much aggression in the world
chill out , get a fire going and enjoy the birds chirping and hear the creek flowing of water before you pop a valve or die from stress related cancer.



he could have said... ring my insurance company and you deal with it
but no
he gave his own personal car which in this day and age is pretty unheard of.

mountainman above suggested to get a genuine toyota rebuilt kit. So does this mean we would source the rebuild kit from a Toyota dealer and then provide this to the engine rebuild company chosen by my mechanic to rebuild the engine?

Do these genuine toyota rebuilt kits exist for the 1HZ motor?


Thank you for your comments. The owner of the workshop is making enquiries of a number of engine rebuilders including:

Gem (in Melb?)
In-tune Performance (Peakhurst, Sydney)
APA ?

Should I have a preference and who is going to do the best job?
I do I (a non-mechanic) make sure I'm getting the best rebuild solution?

Does anyone have any thoughts of who would do a good engine rebuild for this engine?

Thanks richardmh

Any Toyota dealership should be able to help

nothing is better than genuine gear!!

agreed, have a chat to your insurer, tell them all the details. Depending on your cover, they may in fact cover the repairs & then chase the incompetent workshop.

NRMA say they do not cover this event

Correct - NRMA do not cover this event, because their policy only covers the owner of the vehicle and any damage he has caused or incurred.

The mechanical repair business that caused the engine damage should carry a Public Liability Policy to the tune of several million dollars, at least.

If they have no PLP (an unthinkable position, but it's been known), then the business is totally liable for the repairs and the cost comes directly out of the business owners pocket.

Few people know or understand, that to make a claim on a PLP, the holder of the PLP has to admit negligence on their behalf.

This is about the only time, with insurance claims, where one has to actually admit negligence to be able to claim on the policy.

The business owner has admitted negligence to the vehicle owner, if he has a current, paid-up PLP, all he needs to do is submit a claim with all the details and costs involved, and the insurance company has no choice but to pay out verifiable costs incurred.

I have been in business, I was a one-third partner in a major business, that in the early 1990's, had over 100 employees, that grossed over $15M annually, and I have had extensive experience with insurance claims and brokers - and I even had to make a claim on PL insurance once, where we accidentally started a small fire that burnt an area of productive agricultural land, and the landowner claimed for losses. That modest claim was promptly settled without fuss, as our PLP at that time covered up to a $50M event.

Cheers, Ron.

You dont think he's a bit full of it?

I agree with Duncan. Makes it up as he goes

I can only comment on my own personal experience........

Have either/both of you blokes had any experience with this firm?????? If not, I fail to see how/why you would comment!!!!!!?????

Back in 2000 I bought a brand new GU Patrol 4.2TD. It was "okay", but I felt that it wasn't as good as it should be (after having done around 20,000klm).

So, I drove from Yass to Berima for an allotted appointment.

When I left the freeway to drive up a fairly steep hill that led me to Berima township, I noticed that I had to use 2nd gear to get up the hill (even though I was already moving....IE: no standing start).

That afternoon, when I returned to collect the GU, Andrew's dad got me to take it for a test drive with him in the passenger seat.

He suggested I drive down the hill I had come up that morning, which I did.
I did a U turn at the bottom and had to give way to some traffic.....so I was heading back up that same hill from a standing start.

The Patrol was rocketing up the hill (from a standing start don't forget) and I was in 4th by the time I got to the top.

There was no "additional stuff" added to the vehicle....just a tune and adjustment of the injector spray patterns.

You may say they are F.O.S. (assuming that is what you 2 blokes are implying), but I will sing their praises at every opportunity because they got my rig running very well.

Cheers fellas, I'm just telling it like it is

Roachie

Well i had shocking service to my vehicle at berrima..

Another happy Berrima customer, for a tune and pump check, injectors

mind you
im pretty sure they wouldn't do engine rebuilds.
They make more money out of doing what they do now

plus rebuild time means they work on less cars..
engines tie up too much man hours ?

Baz, I spoke with NRMA and they say they dont cover this event.

I like your comment that I should take control. I want to do this but I have no knowledge of the industry that would allow me to make informed decisions about who to use to do this rebuild for this type of engine. Any thoughts on who I need to talk to?

It appears the company suggested sounds okay, my point is that you ensure you understand your rights in this instance. For that it might pay to speak to a legal person, if for no other reason that you are informed.

Good luck with it all

Cheers, Baz

Yes. The mechanic is fine - stick with him.

Phil G (SA)

The Boss sounds fine but the mechanic definitely ISN'T.
Without oil, the bearings/big ends would rattle from startup until destruction. The mechanic "heard nothing" to alert him? even after making a long series of mistakes. Not a mechanic to me.
I used to try and teach those types of mechanics, most are not very mechanically savvy. Only 9% pass a higher level of mechanical understanding on VACC testing. Been there done that. The failure rate absolutely amazed me.

Yes, this guy missed all the signs, mechanics 101.
This engine has always been a beautiful running engine serviced meticulously, and then some idiot comes along and kills it.

I belief that there were a number of different mechanics working on my car that day, therein is also another problem.

Thanks Ron, any ideas on who is the right person to rebuild my engine?

Bogdan - GEM have been in business for as long as I can remember (and I started in business in 1965, owning mechanised plant and equipment) and they have a long-standing reputation for professional engine reconditioning.

GEM specialise in engine reconditioning and have always done so. They offer a 1 yr unlimited km warranty on their reconditioned engines, and I don't think you could beat that anywhere.

Unfortunately, it's sign of the times, that the engine reconditioning business is only a shadow of what it used to be, with very few engines needing reconditioning today, as compared to the 60's and 70's.

Engine reconditioners now only number a handful in Australia, and you often have the choice of only a couple of businesses that still do this type of work.

Diesel reconditioning needs to be carried out by a business that has experience in that field, and GEM outline their history, their experience, and their qualifications, very well, in that line of work.

GEM engine reconditioning

Cheers, Ron.

I have to agree - HM Engines (GEM) are one of the best around. The fact that they are still in business after many have long gone is testament to the quality of their work. These guys have been rebuilding diesels for as long as I can remember and I am talking heavy duty stuff like Cat and Detroit.

Engine rebuilders employ first class machinists, not mechanics. They use highly specialized equipment to recondition engine components. Accordingly forget your Berrima diesels and so forth as it would be highly unlikely that they would have the required machines on site. They would most likely have to outsource things like crankshaft and cam shaft grinding, etc.

Regards,

Geoff

Thanks Ron & Geoff,

Gem seem like one business to put on the list. Are there any others in Sydney you would trust with this engine.

The workshop owner has told me today that he is having the cylinder head and engine block sent away to a reputable machine shop of "his choice" to be reconditioned. I'm not sure that the owner has any intention of claiming this thru his insurance and so I would be concerned that the owner may choose a machine shop that suits his interests not mine and that the parts used may not be the best quality and certainly not genuine Toyota which is what he broke. Should I take control, can I ask for details of his insurance company?

Help, Richard

Richard, you definitely need to make it clear to the workshop owner that your engine was genuine Toyota, and that you want it rebuilt with genuine Toyota parts.

Tell him you also need to know the name and location of the "reputable" machine shop, and if they are competent and experienced in the repair of diesel engines.

You need to make your position clear to the workshop owner, without upsetting him, and keep an accurate diary record of all discussions and decisions, and also ask what kind of warranty he is supplying on the engine rebuild.

Whether the owner claims on his insurance or not, is not really your concern - that is a business decision by the workshop owner, and you just need to make clear, your major concern is that the workmanship in the reconditioned engine is not going to become a major cost-cutting exercise.

After all, if an insurance claim is made, there is no guarantee that you would be able to control the quality of the repair overseen by the insurance company.

All that you should be concerned about, is that the repair work meets an acceptable and satisfactory level, and that a reasonable-length warranty is supplied for the reconditioned engine.
He should provide a minimum of 6 months warranty on the reconditioned engine.

The NSW Fair Trading site only says ...

1. That services will be carried out with due care and skill, and,
2. That any components supplied in connection with those services will be reasonably fit for the purpose for which they are supplied.

This wording appears to give the repairer, the option of utilising aftermarket parts, if he/she so chooses.
I have personally used many aftermarket parts over many years and found most were of satisfactory standard.

However, it wasn't uncommon to find that aftermarket engine component suppliers (such as piston and ring suppliers) supplied older designs of rings and pistons, when the genuine product had moved on to an improved design, with better performance and life.

I'm sure that "registered design" and patents had a lot to do with the aftermarket suppliers being unable to supply current design components.

Manufacturers are constantly improving their products, particularly where they have had a problem with, say, oil consumption, or inadequate lifespan of the component.

You can use this point to strengthen your argument when you present your case that you want genuine parts used in the reconditioning.

Also - It pays to remember, that a key word in insurance policies is "indemnify".
To "indemnify", within insurance policy wording, is to cover the insured, so that they end up, no better off, and no worse off, after an insurable event.

In the insurance industry, this would mean that the insurance company is within its legal rights to merely supply a replacement engine, that has already done 270,000kms, the same as your engine - and that would mean, a used engine sourced from a 4WD wrecking establishment.

Cheers, Ron.

Hi Richard, I feel your pain, been down a similar road as well. My 2 cents is you have 3 options.

1/ Leave it in his hands to do as he plans and hope that the workmanship is acceptable, but... who is assembling it.? A machine shop machines, they generally don't put it all back together so regardless of what parts are used you want to know who is doing the real important bit.

2/ Negotiate a deal involving a reco GEM or similar motor that you put money towards. I know it sounds ridiculous that you should have to stump up for someone else's mistake but going by the to and fro you are having with mechanic it sounds like he's backing off his original promise.

3/ Go the legal route but be prepared to have your vehicle off the road and perhaps not in your possession for a number of months.

In my case 20 years ago when we had little money it would have been option 1.
With the added threat that his life insurance had better be current.

Now it would be reluctantly option 2.Only because I have a little more free cash but still time poor.

In a couple of years bring on option 3. Money poor but time on my hands !

Good luck, I hope you sort it.

Agree rumpig!

"The owner of the workshop has said he will repair the damage with an engine rebuild to bring it back to “new”. He has mentioned two places Gem Industries (in Melb) and In-Tune Performance (Peakhurst Sydney)."

To me, it reads that he accepts responsibility for the damage and will outsource the repairs at a place of the owners choosing.

Why are so many people slamming him? - he seems to be doing everything to get the job done.

Why are so many slamming the mechanic? - put your hand up if you have never made a mistake!

Bogdan - you have had good advice re the use of Gem industries (from members with very good credibility). Your engine will be covered by a warranty (from Gem and usually 3 months on recon and 12 months on rebuild - you will need to check though).

A recon only does the basics, a rebuild/remanufacture idea engine is better. A wreckers engine won't come with a warranty (how can they?). If your looking at a new motor suggest to the owner that you pay the difference.

Despite your current grief, you seem to have a decent mechanic. You just have to choose a course of action that will give you a suitable outcome.

Remember - sh1t happens - it's how the sh1t gets sorted that matters! It looks like yours is on the road to being sorted.

Cheers

Anthony

Thanks Anthony, yes the mechanic shop owner is doing the right thing. At this stage I have't been given a choice of who should do the rebuild, any ideas?

Sorry mate,

I'm on the west coast and have no experience with either of the companies mentioned.

Muzbry has recomended GEM Industries - he is one of the forums "elder statesmen" and I not drawn to exagerated or BS. I hold his advice in high regard.

Cheers

Anthony

9900Eagle - You're right, what has happened can't be changed.

What can happen though, is the business owner can make changes to his employment methods and checks, to ensure the absolute minimum possibility of a similar event happening again.

It's obvious the employee lacks even basic mechanical skills and mechanical feeling.

Not only was the employer lax in checking the basic skills and abilities of his employee, he was lax in his supervision of his employee, who is being entrusted with customers vehicles, that can possibly be worth huge sums of money, and cost huge sums, to repair any careless damage, to those vehicles.

Bottom line is, people who operate businesses involved in the repair of expensive equipment need to ensure that the people they employ are competent, possess the basic skill sets that make them a valuable employee, and demonstrate that they are capable of carrying out repairs in a manner that doesn't cost the business a fortune, and result in destruction of the businesses reputation for competent work.

Engine reconditioning is one of those areas where competence must reach a high level, mistakes must be eliminated via intense supervision and double checking, and experienced employees must be in charge of the work.

The biggest mistakes here, are that this business owner is employing a burger flipper who passed himself off as a mechanic - the business owner didn't supervise the burger flipper adequately, to ensure that he had the right skills - and the business owner didn't understand that even just a simple oil change was beyond this clowns ability - thus leaving the business owner wide open to major cost burdens on his business.

The simple fact is, that people who run businesses in this manner rarely stay in business - because they continue to carry out repair work that is lacking in competence, and the damage bill ends up breaking them.

In addition, word gets around that the business is known for a lack of competence and the work level falls away.
A business such as a mechanical repair shop, is based on a great deal of trust between the business and its clients - and that trust relies on the business exhibiting and providing, a very satisfactory level of competence.

This business has not provided any evidence of a satisfactory level of competence and supervision - even if the business owner has gone to lengths to provide rectification of the damage caused.
The true level of damage is to his business reputation, and the doubt cast on his ability to employ competent mechanics.

Cheers, Ron.

Ron

Can I have the address of your business - because you obviously have it all together and I can be guaranteed that nothing will ever go wrong or get damaged. I want to spend my money at your place.

You claim to have owned a major transport business running vehicles that numbered into the triple figures - obviously not on your own. I would love to be able to use the selection criteria you use to select employees. It must really sort out those in "high heels and Spurs" brigade.

You write your diatribe, bagging all and sundry without a full grasp of the facts. You make a lot of assumptions. You sprout facts without basis or source.

The link you supply to illustrate you point of lack of competence of the mechanical ability in the op's case is irrelevant. The first two rebuilds were completed by the owner of the motor not a mechanic - the use of the pronoun "HE" throughout the article would indicate this.

"...this business owner is employing a burger flipper who passed himself off as a mechanic..." - if you were at the employment interview, why didn't you check his qualifications?

"...the business owner didn't supervise the burger flipper adequately, to ensure that he had the right skills..." - if you were in the workshop to observe this, why didn't you intervene?

"...the business owner didn't understand that even just a simple oil change was beyond this clowns ability..."

People make mistakes - that's why pencils have rubbers and cars have bumpers!

This is what makes us human.

Anthony

Anthony, you hop on a an aircraft, totally reliant on the skills and competence and adequate supervision of people that have worked on it, trusting that it won't fall out of the sky and take you to your unnecessary death.

Now, engine damage isn't in quite the same scenario - but a properly trained, properly supervised, and licenced mechanic is entrusted with the proper repair of road vehicles, to ensure that your steering components don't come apart when you're barrelling down the freeway at 120kmh.

This is why "chain of responsibility" is now in place in the transport chain - because careless and incompetent and poorly-supervised clowns in the past were allowed open slather to repair vital truck components.
Some of them couldn't even replace a wheel without it coming off and killing someone.

Yes, at the end of the day, it's only an engine, and it can be repaired, and it will cost the business owner a heap of money.

The problem is deeper, though. The bloke is reputedly a LICENCED and AUTHORISED repairer, who does safety inspections as well.
I hate to think what else has gone wrong, been stuffed up, and slipped through without supervision, in this business.
The ramifications are enormous, and that is why we have regulation, licencing, training and competence qualifications in place.

If you're happy to live with 3rd world competence, lack of supervision, and a shrug of the shoulders, and a "sh!t happens" quote, right after a totally-avoidable disaster - then I'm sure you'd be right at home in places such as Nigeria, or some other 3rd world country, with little regulation, and even less competence.

Cheers, Ron.

It's easy to be hard on the mechanic who is apparently "at fault". But maybe it's not entirely his fault. Maybe we only have part of the story. Those with aviation experience may be familiar with the Reason model as to why an event occurs - it's been quoted here before. Basically you have multiple layers of defence against an incident, but each layer has a small flaw. If all the flaws line up, you have an incident. But if even one flaw is unaligned with the rest in the stack, you don't.

The defences here could be

Recruitment
Training
Supervision
Management of workload
Management of distractions
Quality control

Anyone can make up a list of flaws under those headings - poor recruiting procedure, like sloppy interview, not asking the right questions, followed by inadequate training, inadequate testing of knowledge and procedure etc etc.

Supervision - was the mechanic an apprentice? Or a kid off the street? Or a long-term employee (hope not!)? Different levels of supervision required. Was the level given on the day appropriate?

Workload - was the job being rushed to get it out the door to meet a deadline? Was the boss harried and under pressure, too busy to properly supervise?

Distractions, legitimate and otherwise. Was the mechanic being swapped from one task to another by his boss? Taking phone calls? Talking to walk-in customers?

Quality control. Was there a culture of quality control in the business? Like final checks of vital actions before starting an engine or doing a road test. Second nature to some, but needs to be taught to newbies. There may be a supervisory aspect here.

Etc, etc.

Some time ago I was working at a place that sells caravans. One was prepped for a show with the standard steel wheels replaced with nice shiney alloys. On the way to the show a wheel fell off - all the wheel nuts had come undone. The young bloke who had been tasked with changing the wheel was initially "blamed". But a longer term employee pointed out

1) The kid was just a general shed hand, not a mechanic

2) In the rush to get everything ready for the show the shed hand had been diverted from one task to another to another and partway through fitting the alloy wheels had been told to do something else

3) The shed hand was young, inexperienced, new on the job, and was not assertive enough to say "hang on, I haven't finished this yet"..He just did what he was told.

4) Before driving out, in the rush to get on the road no-one checked the wheel nuts

Hardly the kids fault, and that was recognised.

But I still cannot understand why the OP's red oil light was ignored. That's common knowledge. Or is it?

Cheers

A well reasoned response Frank!

Was there even a oil warning light illuminated?

Cheer

Anthony

:-)

Yes the OP mentioned the red light at the start.

Thanks

Frank

Yes! I read that,

but is th OP assuming it was lit?
Did the mechanic see it and say it was lit?
Was it faulty and not lit?
Was there enough oil in the system for it to be deactivated, but insufficient oil to sustain the engine?

My point is... There have been a lot of assumptions and apportioning of blame regarding the whole issue.

What it comes down to is it happened. It is up to the Owner of the workshop to work out why and put things in place for it not to happen again.

It is also up to the Owner of the workshop to remedy the situation. From what the OP has stated, offers have been made and the Owner is doing something to get the ball rolling.

Based on what the OP has stated, I think what the Owner has done thus far is reasonable. It would seem a few of the unreasonable members of the forum are simply baying for blood and beating their chests in their own self importance with little or no accurate information.

Anyway, at he end of he day I wish the OP all the best in getting his vehicle back on the road.

Cheers

Anthony

A warning light or gauge are very poor ways to sense a critical problem - they need to audible (loud even).
One day Toyota will wake up to this.
My wife's VW alarms seem to be audible and better thought out.

Why the heck stop there
get a 1hdt head pump and g turbo

twice the power of the old 1hz slug
use the old block and crank.
heaps more power and better on economy.
ive got one in the shed
Exactly as I described
ready to be rebuilt

Doubt the mechanic will stump up for that lot...

If it was my vehicle I would be talking real nice to the mechanic and coming to some compromise where I would come up with some cash and do what mountainman said .

yeah but at that point I'd be putting a 1HD-FTE in it.

Okay, so i'm the owner, i'm listening mountainman, what do I need to source and where from to make the modifications being suggested. Details please...

By the way could I put a 1HD-FTE (I assume that means turbo diesel) into this vehicle? Wouldn't you need to update transfer case and drive shafts for this extra power thru the system?

I believe from lcool
all 1h blocks are the same
as in 1hz 1hdt 1hdft 1hd fte

only difference is
you need to drill a turbo oil line in the block if your running a 1hz block.
Of which any good machine shop should do easy and cheaply.

I have been looking at 1hdt motors for quite some time.
in that time I have seen quite a few with cracked blocks.
and replacement 1hdt blocks are hugely expensive and even rare to source.
therefore you use a 1hz block.
of which there are millions in Australia and I have hardly ever heard of one crack.

ypu chase a 1hdt head..
injectors and pump
turbo
unfortunately you have a dead vehicle in a workshop, soo at best chasing down a wrecker with a stuffed motor or someone online ...you will need time.

difference between 1hdt and 1hz
1hz is indirect injection
1hdt is direct injection.
1hdt has a different head...direct injection
and a different pump

The power difference is worth the stuffing around and added cost
I wpuld highly recommend a g turbo rebuilt turbo
you will gain awesome power and greater fuel economy.

Unfortunately you do need time to source said parts
unless you chase a wrecker for a stuffed motor
USE your 1hz block !!!
That way rego time
its the same block
youve only added a turbo

pistons and conrods on a 1hdt are much stronger than 1hz
being stronger to handle turbo
crankshafts are exactly the same

please do only use toyota rebuild kit
as I bought a 1hz/1hdt motor off gumtree
and it hasnt got genuine gear in it
cracked pistons !!!!!!!
I bought it as a rebuilder
why try save $500 on aftermarket rubbish
when yoir going to put 3-400k on this motor

its stupid

I have someone highly experienced in the above setup
and have built over 50 1hdt motors
seen the non genuine rebuilds come back !!
He only will use and recommend using genuine gear

tacklesnout@yahoo.com
I will chat/email reply there
saving dragging this thread out
and give you a recommendation of shop to do motor
he knows his toyota stuff !!

Great comments mountainman, really appreciated.

Here's a summary of recent developments for you and everyone on the forum:

On Thursday (29/6/17) the mechanic (at fault, but not admitted "in writing" at this time) has advised me by email he will be removing the engine from the vehicle, removing the cylinder head for inspection and having the cylinder head and engine block sent away to a reputable machine shop of his choice to be reconditioned. He will provide a lifetime warranty on the work he carries out and the engine reconditioning will have a 12 month & 20,000km parts & labour warranty.

I visitied the owner at his workshop on Friday morning (30/6/17) and seen the vehicle up on the hoist (I took some photos) but no work commenced yet. I issued instructions at the time for him to delay work on removing the engine from the vehicle to enable me time to get educated on my options so that I can come back to him sometime next week with my thoughts on how this engine should be rebuilt (who?, which parts Toyota Genuine vs after-market, etc.). He reluctantly agreed and reconfirmed his intention to use after-market parts saying that Toyota don't manufacture their own parts anyway, all sub-contracted to third-party manufacturers. When I asked him which machine shop he would be using he said "In--Tune Perform, ance" here in Penshurst Sydney. That at least gave me some slight comfort because as part of my independent research I had coincidently spoken with the owner of ITP the day before at his workshop and it had given me some "layperson" confidence that his machine shop was capable of doing a good job. The owner of ITP had also suggested to me that I should not be afraid of using "quality" after-market parts to which he made reference to an example of a place called "Precision, International," here in Silverwater, Sydney that he sometimes uses for after-market parts when rebuilding engines machined by him.

I rang Precision, International, on Friday afternoon and the sales rep was able to give me a "retail" quote of $935 incl GST on a Toyota 1HZ rebuild kit (pistons, rings, crankshaft, bearings, gaskets, pin bushes, head bolts, cam bearings). He said these come with a 12mth/20,000km warranty and when I asked about quality and examples of where these parts were sourced from for this kit he said:

- pistons (their own, whatever that means?);
- gaskets (Japan);
- rings (Japan or Taiwanese);
- bearings (America or Japan)

I have also asked a Toyota dealer here in Sydney to provide a trade quote on the list of parts required to do a rebuild of this engine which I should have tomorrow.

One of my biggest concerns at present it that the owner has suggested to me that he is NOT going thru his Business Insurance for this repair but is funding it himself. So I see an obvious conflict of interest here because there is the risk he may restrict repairs to save $$$. I already sense this as when I mentioned to him on Friday (30/6/17) his earlier discussion with me last Saturday (24/6/17) where he said that the rebuild would likely require new pistons, he said it may not require new pistons after all (but the engine hasn't even been disassembled at present so why suggest this?)

Why wouldn't he use his Business Insurance to cover the costs, other comments on this thread from expert loss assessors suggest he would likely be up for an excess of $500 to $1,000. But a rebuild I imagine is a $5,500 to $7,500 exercise depending on whether the crankshaft is toast. I can only speculate that this claim may push him into a large premium spike which may make it economical for him to fund the repair himself.

A mechanic friend of mine has also suggested to me that for me to get some comfort that all repairs would be done I should visit the mechanic (at fault) workshop once the engine is disassembled (and before sent to machine shop) to inspect the engine parts and take as many photos as possible (e.g. blue marks on overheated crankshaft, etched bores, destroyed bearings). My own Comprehensive insurance on this vehicle is with NRMA and even though this is not an insurable event for the purposes of my insurance, my friend said I may wish to get an NRMA assessor to accompany me to the workshop when I inspect the parts to ensure I get an expert independent mechanic to inspect the engine components while i'm taking photos.

Another thing, when an engine has no oil and seizes during a test drive like what happened to my vehicle, does this mean that the oil pump (I think a very expensive part) is also destroyed. What about the fuel pump, I assume that would be okay but I'm no mechanic.

Your thoughts on all of this mountainman/everyone?

Bogdan

Have you considered retaining the services of an Independent Loss/Risk Assessor?

I mean no disrespect, but some of the questions you are asking would indicate you have a limited mechanical knowledge!

I personally don't think you are going to get away without putting your hand in your pocket to get a final resolution you will find satisfactory. Buy using an expert (who will be on your side because your paying him) will hopefully ensure the questions you ask above will be answered. They will also oversee the rebuild process, will know the questions to be asked and what shortcuts to look for.

I have used them In the past and it worked out well for me. Cost at the time was around $350.

Cheers

Anthony

Your replacing a factory genuine motor and parts with a aftermarket rubbish kit.

the other way if nit going turbo
is just install conrods and pistons that are 1hdt rated.
that way when you do decide to turbo it one day
the lower part of the engine is rated for turbo.

I dont see a problem in the shop not putting it through insurance
as long as he gives you a written letter of his great warranty.
Aftermarket pistons will never handle a turbo better than a factory setup.
I would happily PAY the extra on top of the aftermarket rubbish that he is only going to use.
im guessing Toyota dont make their own parts, but when theyre are literally millions of these motors in the world and all running genuine with no issues,
Why risk aftermarket rubbish.
they would have their own specs on the materials
used, higher grade of steel and a quality assurance.. which is proven as everone knows its never been a dud batch of 1hz motors ever built.
bringing an assessor into his workshop is a bit over the top.
the only issue I would have is making sure he did actually use a genuine rebuild kit.
I know of some machine shops say they use genuine... but install aftermarket rubbish and then bang...
the aftermarket stuff is what broke.

I would honestly look up carsales
search for a1hdt motor 80series
tale it for a test drive
that way you know what you will be driving/power wise and then have a end goal to see this eventuate
because youve driven one now.

and if you need the proof of why its important to use genuine
talk to DAZ at AUTOCRAFT in geelong.
his had motors go bang when engine shops use aftermarket rubbish
he will also fill you in on the gturbo
as he installs and tunes them
max power/economy
he is rebuilding my engine !!!
when I ever get around to it

Now THAT is a good compromise to the 2 views at either end of the spectrum of posts made in this thread.
The business owner should recognise this response as sensible, and not an attack or demand by the OP.

.
Good God. Someone who actually KNOWS what he is talking about!!!!!!

Boblj, thank you for your advice, most helpful. Since you offered your advice there have been some developments. With time of the essence could I take you up on your offer to talk privately on this matter?

Regards,
Bogdan


Here's a summary of some recent developments:

On Thursday (29/6/17) the mechanic (at fault, but not admitted "in writing" at this time) has advised me by email he will be removing the engine from the vehicle, removing the cylinder head for inspection and having the cylinder head and engine block sent away to a reputable machine shop of his choice to be reconditioned. He will provide a lifetime warranty on the work he carries out and the engine reconditioning will have a 12 month & 20,000km parts & labour warranty.

I visitied the owner at his workshop on Friday morning (30/6/17) and seen the vehicle up on the hoist (I took some photos) but no work commenced yet. I issued instructions at the time for him to delay work on removing the engine from the vehicle to enable me time to get educated on my options so that I can come back to him sometime next week with my thoughts on how this engine should be rebuilt (who?, which parts Toyota Genuine vs after-market, etc.). He reluctantly agreed and reconfirmed his intention to use after-market parts saying that Toyota don't manufacture their own parts anyway, all sub-contracted to third-party manufacturers. When I asked him which machine shop he would be using he said "In--Tune Perform, ance" here in Penshurst Sydney. That at least gave me some slight comfort because as part of my independent research I had coincidently spoken with the owner of ITP the day before at his workshop and it had given me some "layperson" confidence that his machine shop was capable of doing a good job. The owner of ITP had also suggested to me that I should not be afraid of using "quality" after-market parts to which he made reference to an example of a place called "Precision, International," here in Silverwater, Sydney that he sometimes uses for after-market parts when rebuilding engines machined by him.

I rang Precision, International, on Friday afternoon and the sales rep was able to give me a "retail" quote of $935 incl GST on a Toyota 1HZ rebuild kit (pistons, rings, crankshaft, bearings, gaskets, pin bushes, head bolts, cam bearings). He said these come with a 12mth/20,000km warranty and when I asked about quality and examples of where these parts were sourced from for this kit he said:

- pistons (their own, whatever that means?);
- gaskets (Japan);
- rings (Japan or Taiwanese);
- bearings (America or Japan)

I have also asked a Toyota dealer here in Sydney to provide a trade quote on the list of parts required to do a rebuild of this engine which I should have tomorrow.

One of my biggest concerns at present it that the owner has suggested to me that he is NOT going thru his Business Insurance for this repair but is funding it himself. So I see an obvious conflict of interest here because there is the risk he may restrict repairs to save $$$. I already sense this as when I mentioned to him on Friday (30/6/17) his earlier discussion with me last Saturday (24/6/17) where he said that the rebuild would likely require new pistons, he said it may not require new pistons after all (but the engine hasn't even been disassembled at present so why suggest this?)

Why wouldn't he use his Business Insurance to cover the costs, other comments on this thread from expert loss assessors suggest he would likely be up for an excess of $500 to $1,000. But a rebuild I imagine is a $5,500 to $7,500 exercise depending on whether the crankshaft is toast. I can only speculate that this claim may push him into a large premium spike which may make it economical for him to fund the repair himself.

A mechanic friend of mine has also suggested to me that for me to get some comfort that all repairs would be done I should visit the mechanic (at fault) workshop once the engine is disassembled (and before sent to machine shop) to inspect the engine parts and take as many photos as possible (e.g. blue marks on overheated crankshaft, etched bores, destroyed bearings). My own Comprehensive insurance on this vehicle is with NRMA and even though this is not an insurable event for the purposes of my insurance, my friend said I may wish to get an NRMA assessor to accompany me to the workshop when I inspect the parts to ensure I get an expert independent mechanic to inspect the engine components while i'm taking photos.

Another thing, when an engine has no oil and seizes during a test drive like what happened to my vehicle, does this mean that the oil pump (I think a very expensive part) is also destroyed. What about the fuel pump, I assume that would be okay but I'm no mechanic.

Sorry for the long post, but cut me some slack its been a bad week!

Your thoughts on all of this everyone and the recent developments in particular, what should I do now?

Bogdan,
Repairer may not want to blot his record with Insurer but that surprises me as he will incur a lot more than the likely excess.
Contact me by email and I will advise contact number. bob.jackie@bigpond.com
Bob

Google news?

Think that might go over their heads Muzbry :)
Dave.

Unfortunately carelessness and mistakes such as in this case are a fact of life and should be forgiven [once at least], however a clear reckless disregard for safety and protection of people and property ought incur some punishment or penalty.

Employment laws do not allow for sacking an individual for a silly/stupid mistake, the employer will likely have to issue a few written warnings and give some remedial training - this the reality of it all.

Perhaps in this case the mechanic [who may have up until now, had a great track record] had something sudden and concerning going on in his life, [wife having an affair, child seriously ill etc] and this contributed to oversight of some very basic checks and balance. It is also possible the mechanic might be better taking a new career.
If in the unlikely event that the business that employs him has systemic issues with the quality of their work and similar stuff ups have occurred previously, then that may be different.

Given the business will incur an excess of at least $500 maybe more, I expect they will establish just what was going on with the mechanics thinking at the time. Happily if during the reinstatement of Bogdans motor, he becomes concerned about materials or workmanship, he can liase with the assessor or the Insurer to ensure best possible outcomes.

If every motor trade employee that I am aware of that made mistakes was sacked and never reemployed in the motor trade industry, we would have a serious shortage of mechanics - my direct experience was thousands of faulty work claims every year - and that just one big insurer.

Michael - And that's the reason why we have lockout tags on machines and vehicles today, in professionally-run operations.

There are some horror stories with fatal results, and deadly near-misses, from unprofessional operations, caused by unknowing operators and drivers starting up equipment and vehicles, when a mechanic or fitter was working on, or under, the equipment or vehicle.

There are serious "mistakes" that happen, when people who are untrained and/or poorly supervised are allowed free rein within mechanical, industrial, or factory operations.

However, a professional repair operation with licenced mechanics, dealing with the public, and involved in caring for and repairing Joe Publics expensive motor vehicles, has a responsibility to ensure that their employees are well-managed, properly supervised, and there are set procedures laid out for every operation and situation - and that those procedures are followed, and supervised by other competent, experienced foreman or leading hands.

I wouldn't like to think what the situation would have been, if the vehicle damaged, had been a $400,000 Ferrari belonging to a Rottweiler lawyer.
The bloke running the repair business would probably have lost both his house and his business, as the lawyer savaged him and took him to the cleaners.

"Duty of care" is a favourite term for lawyers today, and they make millions out of pursuing people who have failed in their "duty of care".
The NSW Fair Trading website lays out clearly, a mechanical repairers obligations to a customer.

NSW Fair Trading - Consumers and Motor Vehicle Repairs and Maintenance

Any work that is not "carried out with due care and skill" leaves the workshop wide open to lawsuits, brought under Section 60 and 61 of the Australian Consumer Law (formerly Section 74 of the Trade Practices Act, 1974. ACL has replaced the TPA).

The suggestion as regards the clutch is a very sound suggestion - and if the repairer is on the ball, he would have already inspected the clutch plate and pressure plate, and given an opinion on whether it was well worth replacing the clutch assembly, while the engine was out.

Cheers, Ron.

Point taken.

Owner has a reputable business and is proud of service provided to the community. Employed mechanic made a bad error and missed all the checks, oil level, lit red warning light, rough sounding engine. Some quality assurance processes need to be strengthened in the business to ensure this risk is minimised in the future.

Moving forward, I need to get some comfort as as "non-mechanic" that all the engine damage is firstly identified when the engine is dismantled and secondly that all rectification work (machining, parts, labour, reassembly) is properly carried out to restore the engine to a quality and operational performance before this event. I'll probably struggle to get the comfort that I had before this incident about the rock solid reliability I had on my engine (270k kms of troble-free motoring).

QUOTE: "Employed mechanic made a bad error and missed all the checks, oil level, lit red warning light, rough sounding engine".

No, he didn't employ a mechanic, the employee didn't make a "bad error" - the clown who failed to reinsert the drain plug, failed to refill the engine with oil - and who then drove around with the oil light glaring, is not a mechanic - he's not even a mechanics shoelace.
He should be removed promptly from any mechanical work, and sent to work chipping mortar off secondhand bricks, such is his mechanical ability.

I trust this bloke was actually just a casual, unqualified, "oil change" hand, employed to just do menial tasks around the shop, and never allowed to touch mechanics tools.

If he has mechanical qualifications, I'd want them re-checked and examined for authenticity.
If he's allowed anywhere near the damaged engine rebuild, and I was the vehicle owner, I'd be screaming for him to kept back 20 metres away from the engine, and not allowed to touch any part of said engine.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the time you have taken in your response to me to outline the repair/insurer process for the handling of these claims.

Regrettably at this time the repairer has communicated to me that he is "not" going to notify his insurer of this incident but instead will fund the reinstatement of the engine from his own business funds.

The repairer has advised me that it is his intention to reinstate the engine by (quote):

"removing the engine from the vehicle, removing the cylinder head for inspection and having the cylinder head and engine block sent away to a reputable machine shop of his choice to be reconditioned. He will provide a lifetime warranty on the work he carries out and the engine reconditioning will have a 12 month & 20,000km parts & labour warranty."

My repairer has not provided any estimation of how much this reconditioning work will cost him to complete (disassemble/rebuild/recon/reassemble).

It seems from your comments that a decision at this time by the repairer to reinstate the engine by reconditioning the cylinder head & block is somewhat premature given that the engine is still in the vehicle, has not been dismantled and no ascertainment of the extent of the damage has been done.

It is clear from the process you have described that it is problematic and unwise to settle on an "appropriate and economical reinstatement method" until the extent of the damage is ascertained.

With the repairer declaring to me that he will not involve his insurance company in the reinstatement of my engine I am very worried that the method he has chosen has more to do about his own budget than reflecting the most "appropriate and economical reinstatement method". Where the repairer is pre-disposed to saving costs by doing a minimum viable repair, this is not a good outcome for me and not one I would necessary face if his insurance company (with deeper pockets) was paying for the reinstatement.

For example, although my repairer describes reconditioning the cylinder head & block there is no mention of replacement of the oil pump (an expensive individual component, Toyota Spare Parts says about $1,600) which is likely to be severely damaged.

In respect of what may be an appropriate and economical reinstatement method my investigations today have established the following alternatives:

- HM Gem exchange reconditioned motor ($6,500), available now Ingleburn,Sydney;
- Wreckers 2nd hand engines (260,000 km $3,950, 135,000 km $4,950)
- Toyota new 1HZ engine ($10,000, 5 day build time in Japan & 25 days ship to Aus)

My vehicle is currently comprehensively insured by NRMA for $23,000, agreed value. Expert Diesel mechanics and Toyota Service Managers have suggested that at 270,000kms, with my vehicle's impeccable service record, my engine is less than 1/3 of its useful life of 600,000kms+.

I have also requested Toyota Spare Parts to produce a trade price itemised listing of Toyota genuine parts for full rebuild/recon of my own engine. Can I insist that the repairer use Toyota genuine parts or can he use after-market components to rebuild my engine as he proposed to do given its age?

I have currently advised the repairer to postpone any work on my vehicle pending my own investigations of what may be the best outcome for me. I have said I will let him know my thoughts sometime this week.

I sense from the conversations I had today with various motor trade persons that there is a legal right of the repairer to rectify the work caused by the negligence of his own employee and that I do not necessary have a right to choose who should complete the work.

I'd be interested in your further comments Bob on the above situation before I crystallise my position and share it with the repairer.

Regards,
Richard

All you need to do is click on "Expand Unread"

Bogdan,

Please keep all details in this thread so we don't have to go looking all over.

Mountainman,
Go to the Forum Index page and select "Search & Options", then go to Auto Expand and select "Un-Read". Then when you select posts it will only open the Un-Read items.

Regards