Snake Bite Treatment

With the recent discussions on snake bite I thought I would check out the article on this site.
This article stimulated quite a bit of discussion and a Julian C who questioned the info provided got a bit a hammering in my opinion.

I even noticed I made comment asking if the issue he raised could be officially resolved, it wasn't.

So I have had a look around at the site below which I believe was quoted as an authority on the subject and unless I misunderstand the contents, more than possible, they agree with what Julian was saying with respect to applying bandages.

http://www.avru.org/firstaid/firstaid_pib.html

Given this is a very important topic would the Exploreoz team be able to publish definite approved process for applying bandages after a snake bite or confirm that the process they have already published is correct.

I ask this because it is topical at the moment and a very serious issue. In another thread I stated that the governments should do a campaign on snake bite treatment and not wait till a number of other poor buggers get bitten and die.

Of course we could all go to a first aid course but reckon we would still get differing opinions on this issue. But having a campaign would sure help the lazy buggers like me who have tried to find out by accessing the internet.

May be in the end it does not matter how you do it, I do not know.

Rich
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Reply By: Member - Terry. G (TAS) - Monday, Nov 12, 2012 at 20:53

Monday, Nov 12, 2012 at 20:53
Rich
Well done this is a handy bit of information to have handy ,this sheet will be printed out and put in a safe place in both our caravan and our house once back home.
Well done
Terry
AnswerID: 498405

Follow Up By: Member - Rich - Monday, Nov 12, 2012 at 20:56

Monday, Nov 12, 2012 at 20:56
Terry,
Thanks and have put a copy in my IPAD but will do as you say and put a copy in my van.

Rich
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Reply By: Ross M - Monday, Nov 12, 2012 at 21:44

Monday, Nov 12, 2012 at 21:44
While on the topic of snake bite treatment, many years ago some farmers used to keep vials of BP quality Injectable Vitamin C and some syringes.
When a cow, horse or dog was showing signs of having been bitten and also when it was definitely known they had been bitten, the farmers would inject the animal with the Vitaminc C solution.
The next morning they were ok.
I believe some bush walkers also used to take the same when in remote areas where help was a long way off. Don't know if they had to use it or not.

I wonder if anyone has knowledge of this and how it works or have tried it.

Ross M
AnswerID: 498407

Follow Up By: Rockape - Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 07:01

Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 07:01
Ross,

I did see it used on a dog at Bloomsbury and the dog survived. This was posted and a vet came back with no it doesn't work at all and only causes great pain to the animal.

I could see where he was coming from and I believed him. As we all know snakes often don't release their venom. He suggested that is what had happened and the dog would have been fine anyway.

RA.
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Reply By: Wayne's 60 - Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 02:16

Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 02:16
Hi Rich,

After the "death by snake" in Queensland last week, we should all be vigilant of all dangers that exist in the terrain we are traversing.

With respect,

"Of course we could all go to a first aid course"

should read

"We should all go to a first aid course and keep our training up to date.

Rich, in the end it DOES matter how you do it.

None the less, it is a good question to post with more people (and the local wildlife) being more active....everyone should have a high awareness and have the basic First Aid skills.

Cheers,
Wayne & Sally.
AnswerID: 498419

Follow Up By: Member - Rich - Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 08:52

Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 08:52
Wayne,
I have a son in Coffs who said he was required to do a 2 day first aid course and then a yearly refresher for his job as he is out in areas where they encounter snakes and other things frequently. So agree with you amendment.

This stuff should be taught in the schools and made more available to the public.

Unfortunately there does seem to be a bit of difference of opinion on what is the right way to apply the bandages, see the discussion re article on this site. This makes it hard for the general public like me who refer to sites like this for information. I suspect even going to a first aid course would generate differing opinions. So if any site is going to publish a very important procedure then it should be correct and verified and/or questioned if some one reads .

I am not saying the Exploreoz article is wrong just, I believe, a bit different from the reference I listed and if the way the bandage is applied is important then it would be good to have the article verified as many people, including myself, use this great site as a source of information.

Sorry off my soap box now,

Rich

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Follow Up By: Wayne's 60 - Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 09:19

Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 09:19
Hi Rich,

Don't apologise for being on your soap box, as you have achieved exactly what you set out to do.......to raise eveyone's awareness!!

Well done.

Cheers,
Wayne & Sally.

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Reply By: Bob Y. - Qld - Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 16:50

Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 16:50
I'd reckon a bandage applied either the right, or wrong way, would be better than the outcome in Rockape's thread, a few days ago.

In the early 80's we were working on Brunette Downs, and at the time, one of the stockcamps was camped at "Rocky 2", a bore not too far from the now-defunct Frewena Roadhouse. As boys will be boys, they made the journey to Frewena one night, for fluid ingestion and social interaction.

Once back at the camp, they were in the swags quickly, and soon asleep. But not before one bloke felt something move into his swag. He thought it was one of the others, playing a joke so thought nothing of it, till about daylight, when this thing moved at the foot of his swag.

He kicked out at it, and it promptly retaliated, by biting him on the foot. Now he's awake! Much panic in the camp, and in the ensuing excitement, the "perp" was able to escape.

They bandaged the limb, put the patient into the Toyota ute, and drove about 110 kms to the station. They called the station on HF radio, to advise them of the drama, and on arrival, the victim was flown to Tennant Creek in the station Cessna 206.

The bloke had travelled well, but on arrival at the the hospital, that all changed, because once they removed the bandages, he suffered extreme discomfort/pain for some time.
Think he had a few days in hospital, and was soon back working at the station. The "perp" was a King Brown/Mulga Snake, they're pretty common on the Barkly Tablelands.

Bob.
Seen it all, Done it all.
Can't remember most of it.

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AnswerID: 498437

Follow Up By: Aussi Traveller - Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 17:46

Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 17:46
I'd reckon a bandage applied either the right, or wrong way, would be better than the outcome in Rockape's thread, a few days ago.

A first aid cource for $230 and a refresher every 3 years, makes sure you get it right first time every time.

You can buy a bandage that has oblongs on it, when you apply it to a bite the oblong turns to a square then it is the right tention.
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Follow Up By: Aussi Traveller - Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 17:53

Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 17:53
Snake Bite Bandage
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Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Wednesday, Nov 14, 2012 at 14:59

Wednesday, Nov 14, 2012 at 14:59
Interesting link, Phil. Might have to get a couple of those. $19 is nothing, if it's going to save a life, especially your own.

Have done plenty of Senior First Aid courses over the years, and the annual CPR check, but to make up for any mental lapse, always have the very detailed Qld Ambulance book behind the seat too.

Bob.

Seen it all, Done it all.
Can't remember most of it.

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Reply By: Member - Rich - Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 17:16

Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 17:16
Hi,
As a matter of interest I thought I would see if there were some info on RFDS site about the above but could not find anything. Does not mean it is not there.

I checked the St John's site and found below. This approach is similar to the one I referenced above, I think.

http://www.stjohn.org.au/images/stjohn/information/fact_sheets/FS_snakebite.pdf

1. 2. 3.
4.
Follow DRSABCD.
Rest and reassure the patient.
Apply a broad pressure bandage
• (preferably crepe) over the bite site as soon as possible.
Apply a pressure immobiliation bandage
• apply a firm heavy crepe or elasticised roller bandage
• start just above the fingers or toes, and move upwards on the limb as far as can be reached (include the snake bite) <=====
• apply tightly without stopping blood supply to the limb.
Splint the bandaged limb.
Ensure the patient does not move.
Write down the time of the bite and when the bandage was applied
• stay with the patient.
check circulation in fingers or toes.

Rich
AnswerID: 498438

Follow Up By: Bazooka - Wednesday, Nov 14, 2012 at 00:03

Wednesday, Nov 14, 2012 at 00:03
Seemed to me the problem with Julian's comment earlier this year was that it was his way or the highway so-to-speak. As I pointed out at the time NT research showed that health professionals could not apply crepe bandages with the necessary pressure hence they were recommending elasticised bandages - simply because they achieved better results in practice.

While there are some minor differences in bandaging techniques and recommendations regarding bandage type (crepe V elastic) there appears to be common agreement that immobilisation by bandage is a VERY IMPORTANT first step.

This is what the RFDS says:

First aid for snake bites
> If you are able to identify the snake that bit you, then the doctor can select the correct anti-venom quickly, but if you don’t know for certain, ask the doctor to use a venom-detection kit because administering the wrong anti-venom could have disastrous consequences; do not wash venom off the skin as retained venom will assist identification
> Stay still and apply pressure; do not apply a tourniquet but rather, splint the area and apply bandages (as tight as for a sprain) to immobilise the bitten area; do not remove bandaging until you reach medical care (or it reaches you) and the anti-venom is ready to be administered
> Do not remove clothing as the movement involved could help the venom enter and travel through the bloodstream
> Do not try to force the venom out of the bitten area because this will only push the venom further into the bloodstream; do not try to suck the venom out of the wound
> Do not try to catch the snake
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Reply By: Member - Leanne W (NSW) - Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 18:37

Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 at 18:37
Hi Rich,
Great thread.
I did a first aid course a few years ago, and I remember being told of a farmer who was bitten by a snake and thought he would walk back to the house for help. Unfortunately he died before he made it back. It was drummed into us that if bitten by a snake, it is very important to keep still and calm - movement makes the venom enter the circulation much more quickly than if the patient is still.
I tend to agree with a post above - that any bandage would be better than nothing. I guess if a bandage was not available then I would use clothing.
I keep bandages in the front door pocket of my car, but hope I never have to use them.
Another important point not mentioned in you link was to not wash the venom off. Hospitals can swab the bite site and test the venom to find out exactly which snake it was and therefore administer the appropriate anti venom.
Cheers Leanne
AnswerID: 498447

Reply By: get outmore - Wednesday, Nov 14, 2012 at 02:27

Wednesday, Nov 14, 2012 at 02:27
identifying the snake is not neccessary - only a foolish doctor would give an ant venine based on someones ID

most snake bites would be treated with a poly valent antivenine which is not snake specific
AnswerID: 498460

Reply By: Member - Rich - Wednesday, Nov 14, 2012 at 16:30

Wednesday, Nov 14, 2012 at 16:30
Hi,
I contacted the AVRU and put the question to them about the different approaches and got this response.

Thanks for your email. In fact we follow the Australian Resuscitation Council peer-reviewed recommendations wrt the directions for the application of the pressure immobilisation bandages (see the attached two current ARC guidelines). Although the RFDS method should be effective at stopping venom movement, it may squeeze the limb and cause some venomous congestion that may be uncomfortable causing the patient to move their foot around. Any movement will reduce the effectiveness of the technique, hence the distal to proximal recommendation.

Here is a reference to the ARC documentation
http://www.resus.org.au/policy/guidelines/section_9/australian_snake_bite.htm
http://www.resus.org.au/policy/guidelines/section_9/pressure_immobilisation_tech.htm

AnswerID: 498518

Follow Up By: Member - Rich - Wednesday, Nov 14, 2012 at 16:31

Wednesday, Nov 14, 2012 at 16:31
Also see
http://venompatrol.info/index.html
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