UHF use on the Canning Stock Route

Powernut, it is amaizing that people go on a trip like that, which obviously needs a lot of preparation, and don't bother with the protocols of the track.


IMHO the problem stems from the fact that there is no standard channel for 4wding across Australia, and it's about time the magazines, forums, 4wd clubs and us got together to fix it. It's channel 40 on the CSR, Channel 10 on the Simpson and others, some clubs use 12 or 16. Pick you channel. Even 18 if you are towing a camper.

Similar to the point you are making there should be a standard protocol.

1)Channel 10 for tracks
2)40 for sealed roads
3)People should know how to use and scan 5, 10, 40
4)Announce yourself regularly on tracks, especially sand dunes.

I advocate that everyone contacts their club, magazine etc to get together to set a standard. It;s a bloody mess right now.

Are there any signs up at the beginning or along the track to state what ch on uhf to monitor? That would be a good start. I thought channel 10 was unofficial desert track channel?

wizzer

We are considering doing the Canning or some other stock route/track in the comming 12 months but was totally unaware of any requirements to use a particular radio channel on a certain track. I think it is a good idea.
But not being a member of any 4wd club where would one gather such info from ? And who decides what channel to use ?
I imagine that as a club member on a club excursion then club rules would apply. I can see where some folks just would not know. Would all clubs use the same channel for the same track ?
Exteme caution would need to be taken when approaching the top of a sand dune or any other rise where visibility is restricted where you have been in radio contact with others or not. Help being not always there when something goes pear shape.
So, with all this now in my mind can anyone direct me to the correct protocols and rule for this type of off road travel.

Cheers
Terry

Interesting topic Powernut. I was tempted recently to post on this issue after our trip up the CSR with 6 vehicles in July/August this year. This was a topic that sparked a number of campfire discussions amongst our group and for good reasons. A bit of background as to why.....

As I said, we were a group of 6 vehicles heading north all equipped with functioning UHF. Most of the way up we played leap-frog with a tag-along group of 10-11 vehicles all using UHF. Standing aside the fact that all of them were calling over every dune and tending to clutter the airways (sorry Jeremy :-) ) - there was no confusion where the groups were and which direction they were heading. Also a few other groups of 4 or 5 vehicles were in the vicinity heading north and using UHF correctly.

However there 2 or 3 solo vehicles also heading in our direction who had no UHF comms. Two of these were overseas hires (let just say Northern European) and one local. When queried as to why they had no UHF the usual answer was "I don't need/wish or see the point of talking to anyone". Basically bugger you jack - I'm OK. They blissfully continued on totally oblivious to the confusion and angst they were causing.

To say they created a degree of havoc would be understating it. At one point around well 41/42, they were 4 groups heading north and at least 3 groups heading south with the 2 of the 'solo' idiots in the mix - the local bloke and one of the Europeans. Both the leader of the tag-along and our daily leader were calling out warnings to the south-bound groups the presence of these solo radio-less travelers. Not being sure where they were except being "in the vicinity" the south-bound groups were not sure whether to wait or carry on regardless. Anyone who's been up the CSR would remember the large number of short and large sand-hills around well 42. If the solo vehicles had pulled over then the other s-b groups could be waiting a long time ..... carry on regardless - disaster waiting to happen. As an aside - neither of these solo vehicles had an effective sand-flag, not that I think that would have made much difference.

To say the rest of us (both North & South bound) were cheesed/p*ssed off would be an understatement.

Which gets to the topic of our camp-fire debates. We all felt that on a route like the CSR a UHF radio should be mandatory and be part of the permit system or travel passes. While acknowledging that this could be difficult to enforce, we also felt there should be an automatic liability clause in the permits which shifts liability and cost 'automatically' to vehicle without a UHF radio irrespective of the actual cause. Basically, you hit someone on the crest of a dune and you don't have a radio and they do - you're automatically at fault.

I know this could cheese some folks off, however those who've been in the middle of this sort of confusion and risk would probably see otherwise...

My 2 cents worth

Mate I hear you loud and clear, I had a bloke run into me in the Simpson as a result of him not having a radio. His reply to my tirade at him for not having a radio was that it is not the law and that he was beeping his horn at he crested the dunes to warn oncoming vehicles.
He was not the first vehicle in the desert I havecome across without a radio either.

What is wrong with these idiots that with all the $$ they spend on vehicles and fuel they cannot spend $200 on such an important accessory that jeopodises there's and others safety

This topic rears its head every so often. One issue previously raised is the problem with the distance a UHF can transmit and be received and if a person says they are about to climb a dune - which dune? Our well travelled desert tracks have thousands of them. So this issue can cause confusion. I know that I'd be advertising my position whenever it was appropriate to do so, but that's just me.

Possible solution to this, but very expensive, time consuming and would no doubt lead to souveniring would be to number the dunes. use a star picket or similar with a metal plated number attached, bit like they do with power poles. That way you could say approaching dune number 10, 20 , 1000, whatever.

Know it's a bit crazy but crazier things happen. Dare I say maybe a job for Track Care (sorry Ben).

cheers

Dunc

One of the issues with UHF CB is that peoples attitude and understanding varies.

some people treat it as a toy and play thing, this gives certain people the idea that it is useless.

Years ago CB radio was the preserve of the enthusiast, thus most users had some idea of radio protocols and realities of two way radio.

We also had radio inspectors that actually inspected and prosecuted misuse of the radio. People where tracked down and prosecuted for swearing continuously, running over powered rigs and a variety of other things.
These days CB radio is a completely unregulated, free for all, with no enforcement of any type.

these days there are many people who know barely enough to drive their 4wd and have never had any exposure to any form of two way radio.

So many people don't even seen the need to identify themselves or the person that are calling.....they just chat like its a phone....and the chat, with nothing important to say.

Worse particularly around the cities, there are idiots who seem to think that CB is their own personal joke and cant seem to grasp that some people may actually have worthwhile information to transmit and others who would benifit from hearing it....especially on channel 40

It is important to tell people who you are, ( not full details) enough to know that your sucessive transmissions can be linked as being from the same person, and so your associates know its one of them calling.

Its important to say who you are directing your calls to, so people know the call is directed to them.

if you have been involved in marine radio, or taxis in the days of voice working, you will undersand the importance of knowing where you are at all times.....so you can say where you are with some accuracy.

That idea of numbering the dunes is a very good one.
Calling GPS references may be a little clumsy.....but its better than nothing.

Lots of heavy transport roads in the US have mile markers...and that can be important.
In the city we have cross roads, otherwise we have to use what ever land marks and signs are available.

Calling dune 25Km west of well 26......is certainly better than something vague.

What realy annoyed me and several other people.....back when I did a 4wd training course, the instructor flatly refused any sort of discussion on radio protocol, inspite of being chalenged on the matter several time by several people.

There are certain poeple out there who realy believe that CB should be informal and there is no need for any protocol or even any manners.

Unfortunatly CD radio is undervalued.

cheers

I'm all for appropriate Comms on this type of track, but it does require some way of being able to precisely identify where the person is, and earlier Duncan has suggested a marker system.

My only concern about making it mandatory is that whether it creates a false sense of awareness that means if nothing is heard then there is no-one over the next dune? What if a radio fails?

First and foremost, taking care and looking out the windscreen is the first line of defence and ultimately the only one you can comfortably rely on.

But yes, hard to understand why you wouldn't have one...

On a recent crossing of the Simpson, I found club groups to be the worst behaved in a couple of ways. I make general calls/announcements every 3 or 4 dunes and that seemed to work well in contacting oncoming travellers in plenty of time to establish relative locations and then to arrange for both groups to pass while crossing the swales. Three club groups completely failed to respond to my calls and then got all het up when we met nose to nose on the dunes. The other issue I had with the club groups was the many examples of wanton destruction of the tracks and massive fires using locally collected wood. I am getting off track but I would have thought a club trip would have had some UHF protocol.

The other issue we had was the number of travellers who would put out the call "Westbound crossing dune now" as their warning for oncoming travellers.

I am sure it would be useful for all those outback tracks, but a general call to announce your presence every ten minutes or so must add to the possibility of safety for all.

Iza

Yes Wizzer there is a sign on the south end and I think the north end to use channel 40.
As to those who queried the effectiveness of knowing where you are, we just zeroed at each well and then were able to quote a distance south of well xx group of five moving south etc.....
As to the question of range. That I think is a strength of the UHF on the Canning. If the signal is week be aware but not alarmed. If it is getting stronger be more aware, and when it is as clear as can be you are only 1 or 2 K's from the other person and need to talk about who is going over a hill next.
We did get one problem when you get more than two groups in range. It is helpful then to call yourself a group name. Can be as simple as green group or red group but if you use it each time you call everyone else within range knows exactly which group is calling.
There have been a lot of doubts raised since I posted the forum yesterday but let me simply say, using a UHF with regular calls is simple, others get it and respond in an orderly fashion and safety is maintained. Lets not get bogged down in side issues that don't exist out there.
Just a hint, keep any chatting within your group to a minimum and change down a channel if a couple want to have a long chat, just keep the leader on channel 40.
Powernut.

As someone who relies on hired 4WD's when in Oz, I'm curious which hire companies are allowing their vehicles on the CSR!?

Britz explicitly forbids their vehicles from going there. Further, they have a list of other places that require written permission before you may take their vehicles there:

(See 16.2, paragraphs c. and d. for lists):http://www.britz.com.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/PDFs/AU_Britz_RentalAgreement_Camper-Car_1314_English.pdf

I don't know if they have any sort of tracking devices to monitor their vehicles. Of course, ultimately the biggest deterrent to ignoring their rules is the risk involved if you were to break down, have an accident, etc. in a place you weren't supposed to be...

Oops, mean to add this question to the post above:

If a hire company won't equip their vehicles with the radios, then what is the driver supposed to do? I presume hand-held units are available. But I doubt they have much range (either receiving or transmitting) while the radio is inside the vehicle.

Ideas?

I did the CSR with 3 other vehicles, also July-August , and heading south to north.....probably crossed paths with Scott M at some point.

I remember the "Northern Europeans"....and oh yes that big Tag Along (that's another story).

I concur 150% with all of the above, and overall it worked very well BUT there were moments for sure.

We took turns leading and one day I came the closest I have ever been to a head on when leading the group about the well 33-34-35 area.

I was constantly (every 5-10 mins) calling ahead on Chan 40 and making sure of vehicles coming our direction. At one point I came around a corner at about 60 KPH only to see a Nissan Patrol (I drive a Prado) coming straight at me.....I went left (towards a big tree which I only "just" didn't plow into), he went left and fair dinkum I reckon our mirrors touched (yes we were that close). How we didn't collide I'll never know and in all my 40 off years of driving I have never been so close to a major ding!!

Following just behind him were another 5 or 6 vehicles.

We backed back up and he told me he was the tour leader for a Tag Along and asked me why wasn't I broadcasting on 40......HELLO I said I have been broadcasting on 40 every 5 minutes and I haven't heard you either mate!!

By this stage my fellow travellers had pulled up behind me and his behind him, and we proceeded to argue about who was right and who wasn't....I knew I was right and my 3 mates confirmed that they had heard me call forward just 2 minutes before we met.

His Tag Along people could not confirm as they were on a different chanel.........SO

Makes me think he was talking to them on Channel 18 (the people behind told me that only the tour leader was monitoring 40 they were all using 18 so they could chat non stop) when I was doing the calling.

NOW

Would you not think that a tag along leader would have TWO radios....one set on 40 to monitor what's cominbg towards him and the other on the nominated chanel to communicate with his group????

Apparently not!!

We had several other encounters with people who,

1) Didn't even have a radio
2) Didn't speak the lingo

Just imagine the ramifications of a head on in the CSR with one or two serious injuries and one or two seriously damaged 4WD's.....scary isn't it!!

We still had a great time but this was very much a difficult part of the trip, how you overcome it I don't know......we talked to many (like us) experienced 4WDers, but gee we also talked to a bunch of first timers / novices and overseas visitors.

Interesting topic isn't it!!

a one way system is the best solution

Mark T6 sounds like you had similar experiences to us. When the UHF is used by all on the day no dramas. I too would question a tag along leader being able to monitor both channels effectively. Especially when his own tour channel would be the dominant one.

We had an experience when leaving a well, a large group came charging along and hadn't heard our call or we theirs if they had made one! The leader gave a quick apology and it was only then I realised he was monitoring two channels as a tag along leader. Using two channels like that has an advantage of keeping channel 40 free for calls between groups, but it must also be a distraction. It only takes one mistake to create a dangerous situation.

As for making the CSR one way? Good luck with that. We all have our reasons for doing it the way we did. I think we just need to make the use of UHF and channel 40 a more important requirement than it is now. Maybe a note with the permits would help. Those who do their homework will always find out the requirement. The fact that there are people out there charging up or down the CSR having done so little homework just amazes me.

We were loaded to the hilt yet I saw a troupe with no luggage above the window line, and nothing on the roof, no external wheels or jerry cans? Others spoke of that vehicle also and wondered seriously if he had enough fuel to even get to the fuel point!

I guess we all meet individuals who make life interesting, I just wished they also made life safe for others as well.

Overall it was fine.

We passed 143 Vehicles coming south, and I'd say 120 of them were doing everything right...some much better than others but most had the right attitude.

Would NOT work one way, everyone has their reasons to start in the south like we did or the north.

I am sure we would have passed, or talked to a few of you.....we were a group of four

My Silver Prado
A white 100 Series
a Gold 200 Series
And a white late model Troopy

We stuck out like dogs balls as we have our wives with us.......we hardly saw another female (although we did strike a few).

We in fact had a competition amongst our group,we chucked in $20 a head and the two comps were,

1) How many vehicles will pass us
2) How many Camels will we see

Bugger me if I didn't say 145 (and we saw 143), and my wife said 20 Camels (and we saw 18).

Didn't really matter, we stuck the winnings on the table in Alice Springs and bought wine for everyone anyway but it was a bit of fun.

Yes add all the vehicles heading north and you probably had 300 or more on the CSR at the one time.

A number of Tag Along's (a few coming north to south and another going south to north that we allowed to pass).

But yes it was like Pitt Street out there at times!!

We had 2 vehicles heading south in July.
I carried a sand flag and surprised at all of the jerry built ones that were no higher than the roof rack of the vehicle. They might as well not bothered.

Most northbound parties were using channel 40 and were saying which well they were north of and what type of country they were crossing and distance from the well.

We met one bloke from Sydney in a troop carrier who had no flag, no radio, no sat phone and no maps.
One party had originally met him at cockle biddy where he was lost due to having no maps. If he got lost there, I don't know why he would attempt the csr without any maps.
He also only had the fuel in his vehicle tanks. Even if the range of your main and auxiliary tanks is enough it is wise to have some in containers in case one of your tanks or fuel line gets a leak. Just like we are all advised to not have all of our water in one tank.

A couple of years back a bloke was pulled over by a Fesa district officer on the csr.
He was patrolling it in readiness for the fire season, and heard a number of people warning others on radio about a 4wd that was doing in excess of 80 Kms an hr northbound around blind bends and over dunes, without a flag or radio, almost hitting other vehicles. When he came across him he chased him with the blue and red lights and when the guy stopped he asked him why the hell he was going so fast. His reply was that he wanted to do it all in less than a week from wiluna to halls creek. The DO was flabbergasted when the passenger door opened and out stepped they bloke's wife and two young children. He thought it bad enough that he was risking killing himself and other travellers, but was also placing his own family at great risk as well.